Tom
Ex-Hume
Hume-who-used-to-think-he-was-in-charge
Posts: 3,786
|
Post by Tom on Apr 8, 2011 11:45:08 GMT
This trailer doesn't give away anything. It's post SA Sonic running through a patchily coloured, patchily black and white Green Hill Zone-esque area, to meet up with pre SA Sonic. We could take that at ace value and have it mean old Sonic meets new Sonic, and gameplay involves the two of them dashing through 3D versions of old Mega Drive levels, but it's equally likely these will be new levels with similar themes (lets face it how cliche is the two tone chequered background landscape littered with palmtrees, grass, and sunny sky's?). Cliché? What on earth are you on about? It's a motif.
|
|
|
Post by Ryan James on Apr 8, 2011 16:21:38 GMT
Now that can mean either that this game is online, and has either competitive, or co-operative multiplayer, or, equally as likely, that this is only availiable for download, and wil not be sold on discs, making it relatively likely that this won't be a big full game, rather maybe another episode (aided by the fact that this is the first proper announcement or something that's s'posed to celebrate Sonic's 20th). If it was going to be a downloadable title, surely they would have used the Xbox Live Arcade logo instead of the standard Xbox Live one, right?
|
|
|
Post by Retro on Apr 8, 2011 16:54:30 GMT
Now that can mean either that this game is online, and has either competitive, or co-operative multiplayer, or, equally as likely, that this is only availiable for download, and wil not be sold on discs, making it relatively likely that this won't be a big full game, rather maybe another episode (aided by the fact that this is the first proper announcement or something that's s'posed to celebrate Sonic's 20th). If it was going to be a downloadable title, surely they would have used the Xbox Live Arcade logo instead of the standard Xbox Live one, right? Correct. Microsoft has differing logos for it. Xbox Live probably just accounts for some online capabilities. Hell even Leaderboards can allow that logo in.
|
|
|
Post by Juliett. Bravo. Alfa. on Apr 8, 2011 17:39:43 GMT
Nobody has gotten hyped (well, okay John has a bit), what are you talking about? Hey I'm just waiting for envitable [censored] up. I'm just thinking are we going to see Classic versions of everyone. But Black Eyes Sonic man. They'd said they'll never do that again.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Apr 9, 2011 11:11:53 GMT
Eh, I can dig it more than Sonic Retro can. It looks nice and I [censored] myself, I suppose I'll just have to wait for new info in the next few weeks?
|
|
|
Post by Eleonora B.M on Apr 10, 2011 15:57:18 GMT
it looks preety cool to me for now! Oh com'on let's be positive! The last games have been in the absolute right direction, haven't they!? is there truly any need to worry that much? ........yes, I know that the cool predicted anniversay game (15) was an absolute let down and the worst game ever, but that doesn't truly mean anything......right?!? ^_^ It started to feel like centuries we didn't have any kind of news, so it must mean they've been working real hard on it taking the rightful time.....no?
|
|
infamatt
Boomer
Working Hard/Hardly Working
Posts: 56
|
Post by infamatt on Apr 10, 2011 19:34:44 GMT
it looks preety cool to me for now! Oh com'on let's be positive! The last games have been in the absolute right direction, haven't they!? is there truly any need to worry that much? ........yes, I know that the cool predicted anniversay game (15) was an absolute let down and the worst game ever, but that doesn't truly mean anything......right?!? ^_^ It started to feel like centuries we didn't have any kind of news, so it must mean they've been working real hard on it taking the rightful time.....no? I agree. There's not nearly enough footage or information available to justifiably condemn this new game, and indeed recent attempts such as Colours has shown that Sonic Team can still pull some good stuff out of the bag. (Besides, I suspect that SEGA have learned their lesson since 2006! ) Hopefully, we'll start to see an increase in updates within the next few weeks.
|
|
|
Post by ShayMay on Apr 10, 2011 19:54:40 GMT
It seems to me that most of us are being accused of being overly optimistic by the pessimists and overly pessimistic by the optimists.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Apr 10, 2011 19:59:27 GMT
I agree. There's not nearly enough footage or information available to justifiably condemn this new game, and indeed recent attempts such as Colours has shown that Sonic Team can still pull some good stuff out of the bag. I don't recall condemning the game, I'm condemning YOU. To IDIOCY. Hopefully, we'll start to see an increase in updates within the next few weeks. See my last post for a differently worded version of the above sentence >_>
|
|
|
Post by Retro on Apr 10, 2011 22:42:04 GMT
It started to feel like centuries we didn't have any kind of news, so it must mean they've been working real hard on it taking the rightful time.....no? Unfortunately not really. A generally "high class" game requires 2 years or so of dedicated development on averages. It's something I was talking to Kimbo about, really, that Sega rushes their games way too much to get yearly releases and its has only very rarely not been an absolute mistake. Ideally, I'd see them retreat for a year or two, make a game over that timescale then come back to try again.
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Apr 10, 2011 23:50:26 GMT
To be fair, the teams behind Sonic games are made up of multiple teams of developers, not just the one lot that work on each and every game - or even each 'main' game. Managing the yearly releases does not necessarily mean a compression of development time - although, certainly, Sega are keen to take as many shortcuts as possible there. So long as those shortcuts don't affect the actual game though? I'm fine.
For instance, the engine developed for Sonic Unleashed, and then used in Sonic Colours will have saved development time on Colours, allowing for a timely release of a pretty good game. Meanwhile, back in 2006, Sega took blatant shortcuts in testing Sonic '06 and it literally ruined the game. The former is a fine one to take - and doubtless going to be seen in some form here (that Hedgehog engine from the HD Unleashed release will doubtless be the backbone of Generations), and so long as they avoid the latter, the game stands a good chance.
As for my thoughts on the game, they are simply "I'm looking forward to presumably seeing this in action at E3". Until then, I have nothing more to add other than it's an interesting concept. After a recent good show (despite the failings of DIMPS' Sonic 4 Ep 1), I'm hopeful there's a good chance of something quality coming from this. But, if not, hey - at least we got to see classic Sonic in a Blur animation! That's rather cool.
|
|
|
Post by Retro on Apr 11, 2011 12:16:07 GMT
Naturally. Sega's a big boy afterall, I think they probably have about 2-3 "Sonic" teams, including DIMPS. However I still feel that they aren't resting enough time even between the "separate studio" productions. I still get the feeling that each studio working on a game is still only getting maybe a year, including testing and marketing (albeit they are separate branches that handle marketing) to create a game which they always try to bill as at least a AA title.
If they settled back, took two years and really clamped down to make something, no doubt the end result could be better.
My personal theory on why not is the investor position. Sonic games make money, regardless of quality. I wish I could find some stats for Sonic 2006, but I'm fairly sure even it made a half decent profit.
I get the feeling that any investor would simply ask "Why do 1 every two years when 1 a year makes money?"
Which is an unfortunate situation for a good few studios/publishers across the industry, when you think about it I guess...
Although having said all that. Sonic Colours stands out.
And I'm wondering why. Yes, the engine was already in place (at least, I think it was the Hedgehog Engine?) and they'de had some experience from Unleashed. But I do wonder if it was, as many are saying, "a fluke" or whether something critical changed within the studio to permit it.
If anything, this game announced recently carries a heavy burden. To act as the proof as to whether they have changed or not.
|
|
infamatt
Boomer
Working Hard/Hardly Working
Posts: 56
|
Post by infamatt on Apr 11, 2011 12:29:57 GMT
I agree. There's not nearly enough footage or information available to justifiably condemn this new game, and indeed recent attempts such as Colours has shown that Sonic Team can still pull some good stuff out of the bag. I don't recall condemning the game, I'm condemning YOU. To IDIOCY. Hopefully, we'll start to see an increase in updates within the next few weeks. See my last post for a differently worded version of the above sentence >_> Sorry, dude. I didn't mean it to sound as though I was specifically accusing you or anyone else of condemning the game - I was just agreeing that I think being positive is the way to go.
|
|
|
Post by Baron Canier on Apr 11, 2011 12:49:14 GMT
Colours was a good game, but I'm not about to discard all the negative associations that Sega have built up over the years based on a single exception to the norm. Because at this point that's what Colours' suprise quality is; the exception. Sega needs to deliver three or four good games in a row before "Sonic games are not [censored]" can become a genuine status quo.
I also assumed that the reason numerous Sonic games got cranked out so quickly was down to the franchise being Sega's only major claim to fame at this point and pumping them out was the best way to remain afloat (haven't they brushed up against bankruptcy about three times prior to the Sammy buy-out?). "Quantity has a quality all of its own" and all that jazz.
At least, that's how I always read into it.
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Apr 11, 2011 13:12:32 GMT
I believe it was only really one major threat of bankruptcy - right as the Dreamcast fell - and a pretty messy fumbling afterwards leading to the Sega Sammy merger. Since then, Sega have been doing pretty well for themselves financially - and not just from Sonic games - even though each Sonic game does go on to make a pretty tidy profit, even Sonic 2006.
In fact, on top of that, a lot of Sega's best work in the past few years has been anything BUT the Sonic franchise. The Yakuza series, Madworld and the Conduit (both of which were pretty much the best attempts by a third party at a good Wii game) and Bayonetta - arguably one of the better games of the whole of 2010.
Meanwhile, the recent Sonic games have generally been extremely marmitey with gamers. Some people loved Unleashed, despite the Werehog stuff (or maybe in spite of it) and the critical reception the two storybook Wii games got is a lot higher than some Sonic fans (here and elsewhere) would have you believe - and in line with the financial success of the games too. Also, despite Sonic Chronicles not really pushing anyone's buttons, the DS Sonic games have been pretty strong on the whole.
I'm not even going to begin suggesting on the mere basis of the existence of a trailer for a game that it would be a good game - but as far as I'm concerned, there's been a lot more movement towards good Sonic games than you'd think and I'm happy to take an optimistic stance that there's a chance this'll be a good one too.
That said, I've still managed to enjoy most Sonic games in some form, despite their problems. Even Sonic 2006 (the first time round anyway - when I was able to force myself through its awful technical issues). I'd love to see a game on par with the classic Mega Drive games in terms of quality - but honestly, if it's even just on par with the better of their recent fare, it's enough for me to put the money on it.
|
|
|
Post by Shadic? on Apr 14, 2011 4:30:20 GMT
This was leaked, although probably not the final boxart. This was also leaked: Mario and Sonic At The 2012 London Olympic Games i.imgur.com/IkmPOl.jpg
|
|
|
Post by rj on Apr 14, 2011 6:59:13 GMT
[censored] this game.
I'm sorry, but my first thought when I saw the trailer was that Sega must have just given up.
It's going to take a [censored]load of evidence to convince me that this is going to be worth playing. As it is, this thing looks like an awkward looks-like-the-marketing-department-put-this-together piece of dick-in-a-box with no soul behind it.
Ugh.
It's gimmick, pure and simple. Ironically, since the very fact that there are gimmicks makes it the opposite of pure and simple. I wonder sometimes if Sega is staffed with internet trolls.
also
|
|
|
Post by Tom J on Apr 14, 2011 7:39:09 GMT
that [censored]load of evidence might actually involve some gameplay eh
It's the 20th anniversary game, I'd be surprised if they hadn't gone and stuck both sonics up in there. Well, not surprised, but I'm not surprised that they did. and WHO CARES
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Apr 14, 2011 12:27:44 GMT
Not to be the bearer of bad news or anything, but every single Sonic game has been built around a core gimmick:
Sonic The Hedgehog: The speedy gameplay
Sonic 2: 'Blast Processing' and Tails
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: The lock-on feature, multiple character selection and Knuckles himself
Sonic 3D: IT'S IN THREE DIMENSIONSSSSSSSSSSS
Sonic Adventure: IT'S IN ACTUAL THREE DIMENSIONS THIS TIIIMEEEE - also there's a story and stuff.
Sonic Adventure 2: Good vs Evil
Sonic Heroes: 3 member teams
Shadow: lawl guns
Sonic 2006: Multi-character based gameplay, each with their own unique gameplay and the [censored]tering inability to play the game thanks to a lack of testing... although I guess that's not an actual gimmick...
Sonic Unleashed: The 'hedgehog engine' Sonic levels and the Werehog.
Sonic and the Secret Rings: Only Sonic playable (and yes, that was a major selling point as far as Sega were concerned), on-railsish Wiimote gameplay.
Sonic and the Black Knight: Slightly better on-railsish Wiimote gameplay WITH SWORDS.
Sonic 4: It's just like the old Sonics, only not remotely half as good!
Colours: All the Wisps-based powerups.
This game: Apparently the fact that it includes Retro Sonic in some fashion.
I could go on to every spin-off and portable as well, but you get the point. At this stage, complaining that a Sonic game is built on the foundations of a gimmick is about as worthless as complaining that Sonic is blue.
|
|
|
Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Apr 14, 2011 13:24:19 GMT
Not to be the bearer of bad news or anything, but every single Sonic game has been built around a core gimmick: Sonic The Hedgehog: The speedy gameplay Sonic 2: 'Blast Processing' and Tails Sonic 3 & Knuckles: The lock-on feature, multiple character selection and Knuckles himself Sonic 3D: IT'S IN THREE DIMENSIONSSSSSSSSSSS Sonic Adventure: IT'S IN ACTUAL THREE DIMENSIONS THIS TIIIMEEEE - also there's a story and stuff. Sonic Adventure 2: Good vs Evil Sonic Heroes: 3 member teams Shadow: lawl guns Sonic 2006: Multi-character based gameplay, each with their own unique gameplay and the [censored]tering inability to play the game thanks to a lack of testing... although I guess that's not an actual gimmick... Sonic Unleashed: The 'hedgehog engine' Sonic levels and the Werehog. Sonic and the Secret Rings: Only Sonic playable (and yes, that was a major selling point as far as Sega were concerned), on-railsish Wiimote gameplay. Sonic and the Black Knight: Slightly better on-railsish Wiimote gameplay WITH SWORDS. Sonic 4: It's just like the old Sonics, only not remotely half as good! Colours: All the Wisps-based powerups. This game: Apparently the fact that it includes Retro Sonic in some fashion. I could go on to every spin-off and portable as well, but you get the point. At this stage, complaining that a Sonic game is built on the foundations of a gimmick is about as worthless as complaining that Sonic is blue. You could apply that very same logic to the Mario series: Super Mario Bros.: Tight platform gameplay. Super Mario Bros. 2: Multiple playable characters with different skills. Super Mario Bros. 3: Map screens with hidden paths and new items. Super Mario World: Yoshi. Super Mario 64: 3D graphics. Super Mario Sunshine: The water gun. Super Mario Galaxy: Gravity mechanics. I guess the reason people complain about the gimmicks in Sonic games more than in any other series is because they're not well-implemented at all, and the foundations of the games themselves are very shaky. What ultimately matters is that the games are fun, well-constructed and present an interesting series of challenges. Modern Sonic games don't do that at all (in this writer's opinion anyway, and I don't cound Sonic Colours as I thought that was a solid game), and thus the gimmicks tend to detract from the gameplay. So yeah, by your logic every game in the series has centred around a gimmick and that's fair enough, but in the older games the gimmicks didn't openly detract from the gameplay itself, whereas now they only serve to exacerbate what are already deeply-flawed games. It also doesn't help that many of the gimmicks in recent times are just really, really [censored] ideas. I mean, who the hell thought putting guns in a Sonic game was a good idea?!
|
|
|
Post by rj on Apr 14, 2011 15:04:51 GMT
Not to be the bearer of bad news or anything, but every single Sonic game has been built around a core gimmick: Sonic The Hedgehog: The speedy gameplay Sonic 2: 'Blast Processing' and Tails Sonic 3 & Knuckles: The lock-on feature, multiple character selection and Knuckles himself Claiming that these are gimmicks, especially the first one, is more than a bit of a stretch. The only one I'd count is the lock-on, and even that didn't have any effect on gameplay (and was added because of developmental oversight/scheduling problems) The original 2D Sonics are a perfect illustration of "pure and simple" Sonic gameplay, without anything extraneous. If it feels tacked-on, it shouldn't be here. I could go on to every spin-off and portable as well, but you get the point. At this stage, complaining that a Sonic game is built on the foundations of a gimmick is about as worthless as complaining that Sonic is blue. This is an utterly ridiculous statement. Besides, criticizing the look of the character isn't inherently worthless; to be frank, I'd say that the way Sonic's design has changed over the years has been far and away one of the worst character evolutions I've ever seen. That's my opinion, of course, but design is one of the most important aspects of a game; the aesthetics of the final product can change the way you feel about everything else drastically.And as has just been said, the problem isn't so much the gimmicks as the fact that the gimmicks are bad. The fact that they're gimmicky is the problem. Gimmicks should be natural integrations with the gameplay; Braid's time mechanic and Crush's/Fez's dimension-switching are perfect examples of how "gimmicks" can be done well. Recent Sonic titles are perfect examples of how "gimmicks" can be done so poorly as to actually feel gimmicky, poor, and tacked-on. None so much as the Werehog, of course, but it's shown up everywhere else since Sonic Adventure. I still hold that SA2 was the first and last good 3D Sonic, and this doesn't look like it will be changing my mind. (Granted, I haven't played Colors yet.)
|
|
|
Post by Baron Canier on Apr 14, 2011 16:02:12 GMT
Colours was the first Sonic game in ages where I could say "It's good", as opposed to "It's good, for a Sonic game".
To me, only one-third of SA2 (the Sonic/Shadow levels) was ever any good. In terms of story it was also the first massive fall down the spiral of misplaced ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Apr 14, 2011 16:37:23 GMT
To me, only one-third of SA2 (the Sonic/Shadow levels) was ever any good. In terms of story it was also the first massive fall down the spiral of misplaced ideas. I second that statement. I mean, Sonic Adventure hasn't aged well at all, but it holds a certain appeal for me. Sonic Adventure 2, on the other hand, is the one I'll always remember as the precise point where the slippery slope really began (though you could reasonably argue that it was as far back as Sonic 3D). I felt so many things about that game were badly-judged even when I first played it.
|
|
|
Post by rj on Apr 14, 2011 18:40:55 GMT
To me, only one-third of SA2 (the Sonic/Shadow levels) was ever any good. In terms of story it was also the first massive fall down the spiral of misplaced ideas. I second that statement. I mean, Sonic Adventure hasn't aged well at all, but it holds a certain appeal for me. Sonic Adventure 2, on the other hand, is the one I'll always remember as the precise point where the slippery slope really began (though you could reasonably argue that it was as far back as Sonic 3D). I felt so many things about that game were badly-judged even when I first played it. I'd argue the opposite; Sonic Adventure is a terrible, rushed half-attempt at a game that is almost entirely outdated glitz. It has an appeal, but the appeal is most assuredly based more in nostalgia than substance. Sonic Adventure 2, on the other hand, was built as the swan song for the series and it shows for it, with much-improved physics and levels that you actually want to replay. It doesn't feel broken.Like only the Sonic segments all you want, but Sonic Adventure 2 was the first and last 3D Sonic that was a complete game that felt like it was actually put together with some thought behind it.
|
|
|
Post by Ryan James on Apr 14, 2011 18:48:04 GMT
The thing I like about SA2 is how the Tails/Eggman levels and the Knuckles/Rouge levels took gameplay types from SA1 and made them several times worse.
|
|