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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 12, 2011 14:18:19 GMT
The trollpost in Crisis City was epic, and perhaps the best cheat I have ever seen in a Sonic game. I really liked how they flavored each stage, as well, giving each a unique feel reminiscent of the originals.
Ahem, my ideas.
It's very short if one just goes for the story, and that's my main critique. HOWEVER, my friend beat Modern Warfare 3 in 5 hours, just as I did Gens, so that excuses it, I feel. There's plenty of side missions and goodiess to expand gameplay length.
I do wish there had been more bosses, and more story. Being firmly opposed to the idea of turning this into the 90s all over again, I dislike how the trend seems to be only entirely Sonic and Tails, with barely any story between them. Next game, we'll just see characters tilt their heads and notice something in the distance, no voices or something. As a next gen Sonic fan, this is NOT my ideal world.
I liked Classic Sonic's mannerisms and find him very cute. I wouldn't mind if they axed Modern Sonic from Sonic 4 and just used Classic's gameplay for that. They'd be doing it right, for one. Retcons are your friend.
The use of a boundary guard in Seaside Hill is kind of scary, but things such as the Lurker Shark take the cake on the Chopper.
As I said, I wish for more bosses. I had hoped for one boss per stage, myself. The final boss also needs serious work - I do not need to hear "That looks like a homing attack!" every five seconds. Seriously, I was hoping the boss would do its job and eat the cast. Some say the final boss is indeed, the manifestation of the fanbase's collective hatred towards everyone besides Sonic and Eggman.
A final complaint, if minor, was how there was no theme song. No, that riff of Sonic 2's doesn't count. I mean a lyrical theme song that is either THE final boss theme, or is remixed into an orchestral version for the final boss theme. Ever since SA2, we have had rock or orchestra for the final boss. Now it's just... ominous music without any of the upbeat songs.
Of course I also hate Shadow's voice actor, but that's just me so I won't hold it against the game itself.
I'd recommend it, particularly after it drops in price.
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Post by Arch on Nov 12, 2011 17:06:24 GMT
Next game, we'll just see characters tilt their heads and notice something in the distance, no voices or something. As a next gen Sonic fan, this is NOT my ideal world. As someone just replaying Subspace Emissary on Brawl at the minute, I wouldn't think that to be too bad. I'm definitely a fan of a good story in my games, but a basic, voiceless story can also be done well. Edit: Also, keep thinking you're Welsh Dave. There's a few popular avatars, it seems.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 12, 2011 18:08:03 GMT
As someone just replaying Subspace Emissary on Brawl at the minute, I wouldn't think that to be too bad. I'm definitely a fan of a good story in my games, but a basic, voiceless story can also be done well. That is a fair point! I was moreso just making a joke on how the games seem to be turning back the clock, so there was no need for the Time Eater to. Of course, what I hate most? It's apparently working for Sonic's ratings, based on sales and reviews. The world as a whole seems to like Sonic, with warm-mixed relationships towards Tails and Knuckles, and then they have Shadow, who is either an emo abomination or super awesome. The fandom, from my experience, is a complete mess, not just because of the massive amounts of shipping wars and no less than eight main timelines (SatAM, Archie, Underground, AoStH, X, Anime, Fleetway, games) but the fact everyone has their own personal favorite characters or personal dislikes. Half the fanbase believes the Classics to be the best and everything past them to suck(apart from recent games which are becoming more simplistic), a quarter generally set the goalpost a bit later at Adventure 1 or 2, and the rest simply appreciate everything. Naturally, SEGA has discovered it can garner the most popularity from a more Classic-themed game. Looking at the world around us, it works - Sonic seems to be having the most merchandise yet since the 90s, the reviews and sales are doing very well, and the average complaint is now minor or about length, and as an example, he also got a spot in the Macy's May Day Parade for the first time in ages. But, given that I'm more of an Adventure era person, I wish this wasn't the case. Alas, we can't always get what we want. But I can still enjoy the games... Sonic is Sonic because it's Sonic, not Shadow, Rouge or Tails. I just wish I was in the majority in times like this. Anyway, sorry to ramble! I really should learn to condense my points more. Maybe if they allowed custom avatars... XD
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Nov 12, 2011 18:19:16 GMT
anyway Amy's without a doubt the most comical character in the story. she made me lol a lot
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 12, 2011 18:29:11 GMT
Amy always make for good awkward moments. Walking stereotype of women she is. Classic Tails' voice made normal Tails tolerable. Of course, I don't hate it as much as Shadow's nerdy voice, of course. When I see how poor some of the voice choices are, it makes me almost glad there's so little story. I can only imagine an SA2 remake with Shadow having his current voice... *shudder!* Knuckles will forever creep me out, sounding almost the same as he did prior to the voice change. Rouge actually sounding like a woman again is of course an improvement. Vector is... Vector. His scream upon being abducted shows he clearly is assigned to just have a horrible voice. I like how Modern turns into Classic during the scenes where he frees the characters, not uttering a word and just using body language to convey emotions. Sega, why bother having voice actors at all at this point if you're not gonna use them?
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Post by Devo DrakeFox on Nov 12, 2011 23:40:01 GMT
TWO MORE RED RINGS TO GO!!
They're both on Planet Wisp, one on each act. So very close...
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Nov 13, 2011 11:06:25 GMT
the scene where she sends knuckles is the tree is both comical and scary.....so strong..... anyway yeah, her videogame version is pretty useless and steriotyped by now. she lives for the sake of a laugh. The era in which she actually destroied zero, rescued Sonic from prison island and convinced Shadow to save the planet are good and gone! Too bad really, because she was quite an interesting character despite her paranoy over Sonic, her role was actually the most fitting and nice in 06' and she wasn't bad nither in Unleashed as brief as it was. Anyway, it's Like mostly any other character eccept Tails and Sonic. All of them are useless, a the point that whether they're in or out matters little......Actually even Tails and Sonic are so BADLY stereotyped by now that you can forsee their moves kilometers far away. Tails is the freeky genius, and Sonic the always ready cheap joke kind of hero who in a way or an other always succedes. You don't really doubt anything might make you *gasp* anymore by now. *...........off corse I don't meen in the tipe of, you know......killing him off and awakeing him up like sleeping beauty ....* Ps. the scene of Kncukles asking classic S. if he got weight is comical!!!! XDXD loved that one the most! ;D ;D
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Post by ShayMay on Nov 13, 2011 12:35:28 GMT
Sega, why bother having voice actors at all at this point if you're not gonna use them? The reason they didn't give Classic Sonic a voice was because of the potential fan backlash - no matter what they chose, there would be an incredible amount of whining online. Also, Sonic communicating purely through body movement is more true to the Mega Drive originals. I just wonder why they didn't complete the illusion by having Classic Tails shut up, as well. To be honest, I'm liking both the voice actors and the story nowadays. Sure, it's a lot more simple and silly, but it works - Sonic is a cartoon hedgehog, and I don't understand why Sega took him as seriously as they did, especially after Sonic Adventure 2, which, even as a kid, struck me as wrong somehow. I mean, all the scenes of Shadow standing atop the buildings, angsting about Maria, all I could really think was "he's a cartoon hedgehog, what's going on?" This silly, cartoony style really captures, what I feel, is an appropriate feel for Sonic. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not ever saying that Sonic (and cartoon animals in general) can't do serious stories. But there's a huge difference in tone and handling that needs to be taken into account; it was the Dreamcast/Modern games' "end-of-the-world", doomsday-type plots that left me cold - everything was taken far too seriously. I'm having a hard time putting this into words; I find that the Chaos saga in STC, for example, was absolutely fine, whereas the story of Sonic Adventure 2, or '06, or, to a lesser extent, Unleashed was too... dark and serious, despite the Chaos saga handling arguably darker and more personal themes.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 13, 2011 12:35:54 GMT
I didn't even know Generations had different cutscenes depending on who you rescued each character as! Sounds like I have a reason to beat the game again, this time with Classic rescuing them all... (I always played Classic first, Modern second) It seems Classic's cutscenes are more humorous, as well; seems Sega hid that as an easter egg since it seems logical to do Classic first and Modern second. Even the Death Egg cutscene is different too; I entered it as Classic Sonic, so got the Classic cutscene(where you see it from Classic's side of the glass); sounds like I'll need to redo it all again. Hey, it's a good way to get more playtime out of the game! The reason they didn't give Classic Sonic a voice was because of the potential fan backlash - no matter what they chose, there would be an incredible amount of whining online. Also, Sonic communicating purely through body movement is more true to the Mega Drive originals. I just wonder why they didn't complete the illusion by having Classic Tails shut up, as well. Classic Tails is just meant to be the proxy voice of Classic Sonic, I suppose. But this wasn't what I was addressing; I meant how they barely have any dialogue anymore and may as well make everyone but Eggman mute. Eggman because he likes his overly-complicated plans and detailing them. Though, an apparent rumor is that Jaleel White was asked to do the role, but couldn't. Kind of odd, considering Jaleel's working on the Fan Film. Me personally, I always considered Sonic's side of things to be for the bright and cheery story, and Shadow's to be for the more serious and grim. Granted, there's not much more serious and grim to be exploited(Shadow's backstory, ugh), so it being entirely lighthearted makes sense. After SA1 and SA2, Eggman's tendency towards Eldritch Abominations rather than his own genius did get a bit nauseating. It's why Colors was refreshing - no Super Sonic and just the Doc in a doomsday machine that HE built, rather than ancient demigod x.
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Post by Beeth on Nov 13, 2011 13:28:21 GMT
I don't believe Sonic Adventure 2 was anything like as dark as folk are making it out to be. It was only really Shadow's angsting that behaved more seriously, though even then it wasn't too much so, and didn't seem to be at odds with the rest of the game's theme, which I thought was rather upbeat and modestly campy in terms of its mood. The "darker" parts of the game, as it were, were menacing in an "action cartoon" sort of way, the type of thing that would be described in movie trailers as "mild peril" or so-called "fantasy violence". Judging by people's comments over time on this board though, you'd get the impression that Sonic Adventure 2 was an out-and-out gloom fest, which I don't think was anywhere near the case.
I don't dispute that it went somewhat overboard with Shadow and '06, though. And Battle, to a fair extent.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 13, 2011 13:43:09 GMT
I don't believe Sonic Adventure 2 was anything like as dark as folk are making it out to be. It was only really Shadow's angsting that behaved more seriously, though even then it wasn't too much so, and didn't seem to be at odds with the rest of the game's theme, which I thought was rather upbeat and modestly campy in terms of its mood. The "darker" parts of the game, as it were, were menacing in an "action cartoon" sort of way, the type of thing that would be described in movie trailers as "mild peril" or so-called "fantasy violence". Judging by people's comments over time on this board though, you'd get the impression that Sonic Adventure 2 was an out-and-out gloom fest, which I don't think was anywhere near the case. This forum does seem to lean towards the Classics(at least, from what I saw), so even mild darkness can seem like a lot. The darkest part of SA2 is in its implications, if you ask me. Shadow knew the ARK would crach into Earth and kill everyone on it("it's all going according to plan"), and manipulated Eggman accordingly. All because he thought it's what his best friend would want. ...somehow. It's almost sweet, in a very dark and creepy sort of way. Never mind the implied murder of all personnel on Prison Island, though Perfect Chaos likely killing quite a few people in Station Square takes the cake. Regardless of how one stands on the Adventure era, I'm glad Sega did still try to appeal to all the various blocs of the Sonic fanbase with Generations, despite the increasing Classic overtones. Was I the only one who found the use of "E.G.G.M.A.N" in cutscenes and the Egg Dragoon's gate awesome? Throw It All Away for Shadow's gate? There's nostalgia in it for everyone! Shadow and 06 just had horrible plots in general, with or without darkness. The poor cutscene design also brought down Shadow - one mission you're assigned to kill the President, yet he's alive and well come next cutscene! Sure one could say "backup escape pod," but that reeks of a copout.
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Post by Devo DrakeFox on Nov 13, 2011 15:34:53 GMT
I doubt the US Government would approve of a game that involves murdering the President. Okay, it's the United Federation in the games, but they're still heavily based on the United States... as in, completely based on.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 13, 2011 15:41:03 GMT
I doubt the US Government would approve of a game that involves murdering the President. Okay, it's the United Federation in the games, but they're still heavily based on the United States... as in, completely based on. As I recall, there's been a fair number of games made where the President is assassinated. That this time it's done by a 3'3'' black fuzzy thing shouldn't have made a difference. Though maybe actually DOING it is what makes the difference. Though, really, it says a lot that murdering millions or even billions is fine in videogaming, but a political figure is a no-no. I'm not sure what role the US government has in gaming, though. Then again that game was a mess. How many times were aliens, a functional, fully-equipped invasion force, called "terrorists?" I suppose this is for another topic, though. Personally, I'm just glad none of Shadow 05's levels were included in Gens. One black mark we can duly forget.
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Post by Devo DrakeFox on Nov 13, 2011 15:48:46 GMT
True enough. I thought it was stupid calling the Black Arms "terrorists", too. Plus throwing in "Damn!" and "HELL!" just for the sake of it was sad. Yes, Sega, we get that you're trying to make a more mature Sonic game, but it takes more than a little light swearing, it also takes hard swearing and BLOOD and maybe sex appeal
But in the end, with or without those things, Shadow was still bad and it shall haunt you forever.
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Post by ShayMay on Nov 13, 2011 16:00:32 GMT
True enough. I thought it was stupid calling the Black Arms "terrorists", too. Plus throwing in "Damn!" and "HELL!" just for the sake of it was sad. Yes, Sega, we get that you're trying to make a more mature Sonic game, but it takes more than a little light swearing, it also takes hard swearing and BLOOD and maybe sex appealThis is something that annoys me. Now, I know that you mean mature as in the "M" rating, as opposed to actual maturity, but am I the only one who can't stand this idea of foul language, gore and tits constituting maturity? I'm not saying that anything incorporating those is not mature, but to me, a mature piece is a piece that is able to talk to you on some level, a piece that can make or explore a point. Sure, sex, gore, and swearing can be used to further character and story rather than for adolescent pandering (take Silent Hill 2, for example), but I do get a bit irked when the prerequisites for a mature game are sex, blood and swearing.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Nov 13, 2011 16:06:22 GMT
This is something that annoys me. Now, I know that you mean mature as in the "M" rating, as opposed to actual maturity, but am I the only one who can't stand this idea of foul language, gore and tits constituting maturity? I'm not saying that anything incorporating those is not mature, but to me, a mature piece is a piece that is able to talk to you on some level, a piece that can make or explore a point. Sure, sex, gore, and swearing can be used to further character and story rather than for adolescent pandering (take Silent Hill 2, for example), but I do get a bit irked when the prerequisites for a mature game are sex, blood and swearing. No, you're not the only one. I absolutely hate that mentality of "gore, swearing and sex equals maturity" and, ironically enough, it shows a very immature attitude. I would say more, but I think you already articulated the points I would have made.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 13, 2011 16:51:26 GMT
Now, I know that you mean mature as in the "M" rating, as opposed to actual maturity, but am I the only one who can't stand this idea of foul language, gore and tits constituting maturity? I'm not saying that anything incorporating those is not mature, but to me, a mature piece is a piece that is able to talk to you on some level, a piece that can make or explore a point. Sure, sex, gore, and swearing can be used to further character and story rather than for adolescent pandering (take Silent Hill 2, for example), but I do get a bit irked when the prerequisites for a mature game are sex, blood and swearing. "Mature" has come to mean "the real world," apparently. We feel this need to shelter children from all of it, despite the fact they're going to probably find out about it in second grade anyway. (Indeed, that's when I heard my first swear words and even hints at sex, so, I'd say the theaters and videogames kind of have an obsolete rating system). Never mind it's counterproductive. Crime rates among kids who play violent video games are lower than among those who don't. How about that? But, it could get worse. Including hints of homosexuality, even just in romantic, non-sexual terms, seems to be grounds for an upgrade in a product's "maturity" ranking, whereas heterosexuality is just fine at any age level. Of course, this is all just more reason for Sonic to not be too serious of a series - it avoids a huge can of worms. The more "mature" a game becomes, I've noticed, the more divisive it becomes. More lighthearted games, on the other hand, enjoy support from all ages, old and young. Plus throwing in "Damn!" and "HELL!" just for the sake of it was sad. Never mind that I always thought Shadow to be of a more proper, sophisticated personality. Such as how he always addresses Eggman as "Doctor," as if to acknowledge Eggman's actually a genius and not just some crazy lunatic. (Then again, why must the two be mutually exclusive? ) Overuse of swearing, obviously, takes away from such an appearance. Even the slightest amount takes away from it, whereas too much will make you seem uneducated. This not even touching on how Sonic said "damn" in one mission. I facepalmed so hard when I discovered it. The game having also fathered several memes, it's hard to not be.
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Nov 13, 2011 17:41:38 GMT
none of us is overly fond of sex, swearing (expecially) and un necessary violence. But onestly closing things in a just silly domain makes thing uninteresting. Of corse the matter of how serious the story should get is important. Because if you make it too serious it becomes out of place, but if it's TOO silly like the last two titles is gets bouring mabe even a bit annoying. You want to play something interesting, wile the gameplay is awsome, and there are many funny things, you can't tell me the plot is actually interesting or you strive to finish the story mode to know how it ends! It's predictable from the first moment! And what's with all this stereotypes!? Aren't characters nice unless they present a stereotype you expect?! Must all off them wear such a predictable mask!? You guys talk about "for all age" but something for all ages isn't something that anyone can take but something that actually "interests" every one. And Sonic isn't objectively interesting as it is for anyone outside the child range. Personally in Colours wile I really liked the phisics, I really didn't feel the pleasure of ending it as I had with Unleashed that was just a step away. You can't tell me Unleashed's story is SO dark to be unapropriate! Actually you you think of Adventures as TOO dark then perhaps Unleashed was a right compromise between the absolute silly and the too serious of 06'. The right ballance, not or one or the other! Now that I have seen the full generation story I must say I am a bit let down (by the story I mean) It really doesn't feel as rappresentative! Far too sideline, Robotnik/Eggman don't feel in a bit the enemy they have always been, the friends that helped and characterised it all for so long were felt like miserable shakles! The thing though I truly like is the relationship of Classic and modern Sonic. And also giving only Tails a classic look onestly makes me feel like a bit of taking credits from characters that were there for so long, as Knuckles and Amy. it was a celebration, but I really felt like it didn't reach the core of things, as it remained at the surface of it. Onestly I expected more by this title. I am a bit let down. Sure The Sonic saga is getting much better under plenty points of view but it's also leaving something behind.
Also, I personally preferred the modern level than the classic. And I'm not what you'd call a "modern" era fan. I probably played more classic than modern however I can surely state that I like better modern. I feel it more refreshing! I onestly hope that Sonic doesn't become like Mario presenting each time the same old thing as new!
And also, I think that the tendency of taking children to an utopia world, is the wrongest thing to do! You can't show the kid a world where good always wins, where everything is good, and the bad guy never wins! I personally was brought up in this way and when I realised that the world wasn't like that at all, I felt very silly.......and that I had made a fool of my self for so long, it would have been difficult to mnd it. Not to mention pessimism! If you are made belive for the first 11-12 years of your life that the world is perfect and then you find out it isn't, you get without a doubt a bad way to see reality. so I couldn't agree less, with this shelter for childer, you talk about. Exactely because I passed trough it my self! All children grow sooner or later, and dreams must always be equally present as reality.
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Post by ShayMay on Nov 13, 2011 17:49:24 GMT
"Mature" has come to mean "the real world," apparently. We feel this need to shelter children from all of it, despite the fact they're going to probably find out about it in second grade anyway. (Indeed, that's when I heard my first swear words and even hints at sex, so, I'd say the theaters and videogames kind of have an obsolete rating system). Never mind it's counterproductive. Crime rates among kids who play violent video games are lower than among those who don't. How about that? There are other factors to take into account, here. Personally, I think that the crime rates and video games are fairly separate factors - there are tons of more pervasive elements - the financial situation of the perpetrators (which may actually contribute to their lack of videogames), the area they grow up in, the parenting situation, etc. I wouldn't call the rating system obsolete, either. There are certain things that just aren't appropriate for a child to view, and it is the responsibility of these ratings to let people know what kind of content is to be expected. I would agree that "mature" seems to equate to "realistic" nowadays, which really shouldn't be the case. More fantastical things generally tend to be marketed towards children: Mario and Sonic, for example. I had a conversation with my flatmate about the Wii recently - he called it worthless, and while I mostly agree, I countered that there were some great games on there, such as Super Mario Galaxy 2, which I consider perfect. He dismissed that, saying that it's for 12-year-olds, no matter how good the gameplay is. Maybe that's why the gaming industry has to make itself mature and realistic, moreso than other media: in order to SELL, considering this is what it's up against. I have two opinions on this. On one hand, sexuality is something children simply haven't experienced yet, and so they don't know whether they're homosexual or not. Since they'll still be immature (they're kids, they're allowed to be), their reaction to a romantic gay scene would probably be quite discriminative - "eww! He kissed another man!/She kissed another woman!" On the other hand, perhaps equality should be introduced to the sprogs as early as possible. I have no idea. You're asking me to get into the head of some homophobic toddler; [censored] that. Yes, I agree with this. Shadow was definitely characterised the best in SA2. Like Hell it [censored]ing does. none of us is overly fond of sex But I... [censored]. Hoo boy. Best hope you never meet me in real life. Nah, I know what you mean, an unnecessary fixation does come across as stupid. Now this is something I do agree with, to an extent. For certain games, a compelling and engaging story can help immerse the player and make them strive to finish. However, that has never happened for me with the Sonic series - I just want to play the levels, frankly. I want to see the next area, rather than the next character interaction; and so the sparse, predictable, comedic plot helps me with that. While I definitely agree that children shouldn't be belittled (that's what I think made it so interesting to me, personally), again, I don't think the Sonic games are the best place to present them with such a story. STC and Archie, yes, but the games, eh... I'd rather have good gameplay that can be enjoyed by all ages. This is where Unleashed fell short for me. It had a completely ludicrous story (not necessarily a bad thing - my favourite show has a silly man in a bow tie travelling through time and space in a blue box), but then executed that quite seriously. It was much less serious than what had come before, but the scene where the Werehog was torn from Sonic, and the subsequent "all hope is lost" moment - the tone was all over the place. The things it's leaving behind are the things that I (and the critics, apparently) didn't like. So yeah, the fans of the modern, "complex" storytelling will be left out in the rain, unfortunately. I did find Eggman much more of a threat, though - he's building his own doomsday devices and not being so stupid as to be screwed over by the monster of the week. Also, I thought this was a game with a lot of heart. The music, the in-jokes and references, the level designs... it really went above and beyond to reward long-term Sonic fans. Mario has not only continually evolved, but also evolved gaming as a whole. From rebooting gaming after the video game crash of 1983, to making the 3D experience complete, to actually making a game that is enhanced by motion controls, Mario has pioneered and revolutionised gaming so many times - and provided incredible gameplay whilst doing so. He's not the face of video games for nothing. Sure, the core platforming is the same, but so too is Sonic's - Mario has arguably changed MORE, and has definitely implemented these changes more successfully. *discreetly shoves Mario Sunshine under the bed with foot* I grew up at my own pace - sure, not everything has a happy ending, but I read the 9 Lives of Montezuma when I was about 7 or 8, and was inconsolable for ages, which is in no way a good thing. Children should be allowed to grow up at their own pace - it's why we euphemise death at an early age. "They've gone off to heaven, they're in a happier place", etc. The truth would be overwhelming as a child, and that's why I feel that we need to keep stories for children... for children, really. A prominent example in my head is the death of Johnny Lightfoot. Sure, nowadays I find it a little lacking (curse of the seven pages), but it always sticks out in my head as one of the best death scenes as it was the first one to confirm what, deep down, I already knew - everyone dies at some point. But it was handled in such a way that Johnny's heroic sacrifice wasn't in vain, and the good guys won in the end. Had that been the Tekno/Shorty thing, I wouldn't have been able to handle it at all at that age. Also, I'm [censored]ing happy most of the time. The world's not all doom and gloom - cheer up, ye emo! Anyway, that's me done. Sorry for the essay.
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Post by Nam on Nov 13, 2011 20:20:53 GMT
...Though, really, it says a lot that murdering millions or even billions is fine in videogaming, but a political figure is a no-no... A million is a statistic. People aren't very good with big numbers and statistics. It's far harder for somebody to visualise a million dead people, than one dead person. Furthermore, to kill one million people on screen is very easy, as you can do it in a mass attack far enough away for there to be no need to show individual violence, pain, gore, or suffering. Perfect Chaos trashed an entire city, which no doubt killed loads of people (unless you care to believe SonicX "Thank god no-one was injured when we evacuated to this hill top"), but since no bodies were seen, and the video footage, while showing people, doesn't show any of them getting injured. Conversely, had a president died, it's a bit different. You can't leave that ambiguity as to whether or not people died, esp. if it's important to the plot that said president died. Hence you need to at least allude to it happening, and this is usually done by showing the death. Furthermore, for this to have any significance, you need to establish the president as a character, and convey his importance to the setting, to give his death any real significance. It's that investment in the person, and showing how he matters that makes the death significant. If the audience can see a character as significant, his death becomes much more important than the death of either random enemy #267 or generic pedestrian #43 The human mind cannot cope with things on a large scale, hence it's easier to overlook the deaths of billions, especially when these billions are people we aren't attached to. People die every day, and if we all felt personally affected by every death, nobody would be able to do anything. Hence killing millions has less of an impact than a named and known character. On topic: I like the story, but wish there was more to it. considering past Robotnik would've known this would've failed when he tried it as modern Eggman, along with every effort he'd made prior due to modern Eggman's efforts to undo them here and now, maybe past Robotnik concluded he was doomed to fail in every game from the point he was taken, up until now, which, knowing he would fail, maybe means he'd do these things just because you can't fight fate, but knowing this went in without really trying...
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Post by ShayMay on Nov 13, 2011 20:29:38 GMT
Ooh! There's a Penny Arcade strip for this, as well! As for the Robotnik remembering thing... even that seems like overthinking it to me. It's referenced with a throwaway joke at the end, which seems fitting, really.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 13, 2011 20:50:24 GMT
Fair enough points, Nambot. Of course, that doesn't make it any less sickening. =p ...but it does make me wonder if there actually would be any legal standing of the assassination in the game. Another topic though, I assume. As for the Robotnik remembering thing... even that seems like overthinking it to me. It's referenced with a throwaway joke at the end, which seems fitting, really. I thought Sonic 06 would have taught us this already. Time. Travel. Sucks. Period. No discussion. Unless you create alternate universes with each trip to the past, it makes no sense, furthermore. Either that, or you get the depressing conclusion that all trips to the past have failed - we still remember every genocidal maniac because anybody who has gone back to kill him has failed.
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Post by Arch on Nov 13, 2011 20:54:14 GMT
Either that, or you get the depressing conclusion that all trips to the past have failed - we still remember every genocidal maniac because anybody who has gone back to kill him has failed. Who's to say there weren't more genocidal maniacs that we just don't know about anymore, thanks to time travel. Deep subject. Back to Sonic. "Sonic's the name, speed's my game!"
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Post by Alex on Nov 14, 2011 22:23:42 GMT
I've enjoyed the majority of the modern main Sonic games plots - including Shadow's and 2006's (in fact, it was the plot in 2006 - and only the plot - that pushed me forward to actually playing the blasted piece of [censored] to completion).
By that, I don't meant to say they were great (and I do actually believe the more Saturday Morning Cartoon approach of recent games is much more fitting overall) - but I did enjoy them, and in fact still do when replaying those games (although I honestly just can't bring myself to play 2006 again at all, plot or not).
I think there's a place for emotion and actual consequences in the Sonic universe - especially in the face of STC's storied history - and I think Sonic Adventure 2 is the peak in the series of balancing that (I certainly challenge anyone to not find emotion in the scene where Robotnik actually -defeats- Sonic and seemingly kills him, especially in the follow-up with Tails) and daft cartoony humour befitting of the setting (the shuttle ride, for example). I'd dare say it's reasonable to be able to strike that balance again - but I'm satisfied with the current style either way.
Though I do wish there was a bit of a tighter story in Generations. I'd rather have a tight, well paced and plotted out storyline or none at all. Generations' mish-mash in its never-ending quest to appease every single Sonic fan at once (and likely still failing regardless) never really flows that well at all. Outside of the cutscenes before the first and last bosses and the opening and closing scenes overall, pretty much everything else is superflous and meaningless. The two pre-boss scenes mentioned really do make this seem like a hugely missed opportunity as well, as they're two of the best moments in the whole game.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Nov 14, 2011 23:10:17 GMT
Sonic 06's plot, what I disliked:
-The endorsement of necrophilia and bestiality. Seriously, where the HECK did that romance come from, and why didn't Amy eat Elise's face in that scene?
-The time travel. Back and forth, back and forth. Gather an emerald in the past, then take it to the future, then take it to the present, then back to the future, etc. Due to all this, there easily should have been doubles of the emeralds in places. Unless we have some lame copout that there can only be one emerald of a color at any moment(like it would teleport back to its origina time and place), which can't be used since Sega has never gone in depth about how chaos energy works. It is, 100%, a deus ex machina, after all. "Oh, Sonic's about to lose! Nope nope, he goes super! He's worthless without chaos energy, y'know."
If not for the romance and time travel spam, it probably would have been more bearable for me personally.
As for Generations, yes, the plot was pretty much non-existent outside the beginning cutscenes and the ending. The "save character x" cutscenes are essentially filler, and seeing the Time Eater just fly in to creepy music then fly back out gets old quick. I know there's not much plot to be had with something based on re-visiting old eras, but they could have easily used more humor towards games - why was there no mention of turning into a werewolf, for instance? Or "that one thing I kind of remember but can't think of right now." - 06? Sega missed out on a lot of opportunities for humor as much as anything deep, I feel.
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