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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 27, 2012 10:33:21 GMT
No invisible walls, but many many places where you either jump down, and can't get back up, go from 3D to 2D with a zipline/canon/something else, and can't return, or many things hidden with collapsing platforms that don't respawn. Seriously, the way I managed to get the five rings in each planet wisp level, was with a video guide, and suiciding everytime I messed up on a non-returning temporary platform, making sure not to touch any checkpoints if I missed a ring. As I recall... back in the old games, you rarely got all the goodies on the first try either. Never mind, the higher you go the harder it is to stay up there, but you find a lot of goodies you'd otherwise not get. I find it odd that, despite this being the formula for the first few games, the retro fans are disapproving. What I did dislike with Colors was that once you unlocked Super Sonic, he disables all other Wisps and he also has music that really gets annoying after about thirty seconds.
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Post by Arch on Jan 27, 2012 11:49:27 GMT
What I did dislike with Colors was that once you unlocked Super Sonic, he disables all other Wisps and he also has music that really gets annoying after about thirty seconds. It's generally just part of the main theme repeating itself, just like it used to be. At least there is a tune; IIRC, Generations doesn't make any sort of fanfare about Super Sonic and keeps the normal level music. That and Super is [censored] in Generations, both versions of him. I agree about the Red Ring collection. Not much of a challenge if you can get them all in one playthrough, though.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 27, 2012 13:17:47 GMT
As I recall... back in the old games, you rarely got all the goodies on the first try either. Never mind, the higher you go the harder it is to stay up there, but you find a lot of goodies you'd otherwise not get. I find it odd that, despite this being the formula for the first few games, the retro fans are disapproving. This is why I hate Sonic fans. You point out legitimate complaints that anyone can see and apparently you're being a retro fanboy. The original games did exploration correctly. You were rewarded for experimenting and straying off the beaten path with rings, lives, shields, bonus stages (in S3K), and generally worthwhile things to have. In addition to this, the game was designed in such a way - both in mechanics and level design - that if you missed these bonuses, it wasn't a big deal. Besides, there were loads more goodies further on for you to nab. In Generations (I don't count Colours, more on that in a minute) there is no exploration. There's "stick to the top path for the best time". That's not exploration. It's a [censored]ing race-course with jumps, and what it means that if you make one single mistake (which you inevitably will with Sonic's wonky jump controls), you have to restart, lest you get a bad rank and/or miss the red rings. The part that really pissed me off was in Sky Sanctuary Classic, where the game, right at the end, basically goes "haha [censored] you, you have to play this level thrice". The reason I don't include Colours in this is because Colours did it right as well. The Red Rings were hidden away and you have to make good use of Wisp powers, and experiment, in order to find them. In addition, time bonuses played a much smaller part in your overall score, meaning you could afford to stray off the beaten path, and were encouraged to piss about with the Wisps (as that boosted your score further). Finally, they didn't subscribe to the whole "higher path is the path to go" mentality. Basically, overall, it was just a much more cohesive and well thought-out game. It's exactly as Yahtzee says: it's like Sonic Team went "ha-haaa, we've still got it!" and then proceeded to throw out all the things that made Colours such a success. Nowadays, I don't give a toss about classic/modern. Colours has proven that, if Sega go into the game not trying to be a mish-mash of fan-[censored]s, and instead focus on making a single, cohesive package, they can come out with something excellent. Generations, while relatively fun, is nowhere close to that in a lot of respects, and that's why it's being criticised. Not because we're busy crying about the Mega Drive, but because it's simply not a great game. It's good, but the second you chip the shiny sheen of nostalgia the whole thing basically crumbles. Edit: Oh yeah, Super Sonic is [censored] in both for definite. He's only useful in Terminal Velocity Act 1 in Colours and nowhere in Generations.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 27, 2012 13:47:45 GMT
It's generally just part of the main theme repeating itself, just like it used to be. At least there is a tune; IIRC, Generations doesn't make any sort of fanfare about Super Sonic and keeps the normal level music. That and Super is [censored] in Generations, both versions of him. I have yet to unlock him in normal gameplay if that's possible, but that final boss is total hell. It was one thing I agreed with Yahtzee on - normally I appreciate his humor but class most of his arguments as retro fanboyism - in that the final boss was insane due to how hard it was to find those rings. All too often they blend in with the background and so can't be grabbed. Dark Gaia had a similar problem, though not quite as bad. Never mind that boss' big "screw you" moment was at the very end. Unless you have keen eyes, I don't think you're going to do that. In some stages they're REALLY well hidden, particularly Aquarium Park due to the numerous pipes you need to go through. This is why I hate Sonic fans. You point out legitimate complaints that anyone can see and apparently you're being a retro fanboy. Where did I say that? I merely said I found it odd retro fans complain about a formula that was used in prior games. Non-retro fans complain too of course, but I don't need to point out any inconsistency there. Well, hey, they need to extend replayability somehow. Hmm. Perhaps a point here. I just like making shots at the classic fanbase wherever I can, though. Unfortunately, the retro fans still are a fair market to cash in on. As such, Sega attempts to please both - the younger and older generation alike. They gave up on trying to go fully Classic as that doesn't work. Fully modern doesn't work either, based on 06 and Shadow 05. So they instead went with simpler storylines with modern characters(albeit a smaller cast) and entirely speed-based(rather than gimmicky) gameplay. Thus far it seems to work and please both factions. Next gen fans, meanwhile, seem to embrace anything, so it's no wonder that Sega went towards retro - it's the harder group to please.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 27, 2012 13:55:16 GMT
Well, hey, they need to extend replayability somehow. No no no, this isn't extending replayability, this is poor design. This is arbitrary frustration. This is artificially extending the length of a game by annoying the player. The classic games, with the exception of Sonic 2 which is the worst imo, didn't use the "top path to win" formula. Take Green Hill Zone, for example: first thing you encounter in Act 2 is a part where, if you go down, you get a shield and 20 rings, and there's another part in Act 1 (I think) where, if you take the lower path and make a tricky jump, you're rewarded with 30 rings and an extra life. ...You go on to say, after asking me where you took a shot at the classic fans, you enjoy taking shots at classic fans. Can you see how you might be shooting yourself in the foot here? Unfortunately, the retro fans still are a fair market to cash in on. *digs up old rant* It's not. But four words (three words and a number, then): Super Mario Galaxy 2. It allows kids to come in and play an excellent game. At the same time, it caters to the older crowd who grew up with the plumber, allowing them to play an excellent game. There is nothing stopping Sonic from doing the same, except perhaps Sonic Team's infuriating tendency to cock things up (admittedly, a pretty big nothing). Just now, rather than listen to a fanbase that's as all over the place as a skitzo in a hall of mirrors, Sonic Team need to make a decision about where Sonic is going from here and stick the Hell to it, not bounce ideas from the different fanbases around so it ends up as one big goopy mess. Sonic may not be being made for us nowadays, but I think we can all agree it's more than nostalgia that keeps us going back to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Why shouldn't Sonic Team appeal to these kids in the same way they appealed to us - by making a timeless, quality game, that caters to both kids and adults with the universally-appealing medium of good gameplay? The reason Sonic fans get all misty-eyed over the Mega Drive games is because they were all designed in a very specific manner: one which made the games really gel and made the whole thing feel like a complete experience. Every time that Sega dig that back up, they do so with a new set of physics/mechanics/ideas that don't compliment the gameplay style they've chosen. Colours really gelled: it felt like one complete package, and guess what? Not once did it try and be classic Sonic.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 27, 2012 14:01:43 GMT
The classic games, with the exception of Sonic 2 which is the worst imo, didn't use the "top path to win" formula. Take Green Hill Zone, for example: first thing you encounter in Act 2 is a part where, if you go down, you get a shield and 20 rings, and there's another part in Act 1 (I think) where, if you take the lower path and make a tricky jump, you're rewarded with 30 rings and an extra life. Hmm. Perhaps I should play them more then. I just assumed Sega's representative knew what he was talking about when he mentioned that the game would emulate the Classic games' use of higher levels for better rewards. Not at all; I'm simply being honest. Colors made extensive use of 2D sections. Or 2.5D, if we want to get nitpicky. A neat means of trying to blend the modern and classic genre, yes. Sega seems to be trying to blend the best of 2D and 3D. The worst part about 2D is that if you go super fast, you can't really see the hazards ahead of you, so as Yahtzee put it, the horrible irony is Sonic will end up going TOO fast. The worst part about 3D, I'd think, would be that if you don't have a good grasp of the controls(which I apparently do as I never have much of a camera complaint unlike my peers), you're likely going to end up falling into a pit of death.
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Jan 27, 2012 14:35:55 GMT
The worst part about 2D is that if you go super fast, you can't really see the hazards ahead of you, so as Yahtzee put it, the horrible irony is Sonic will end up going TOO fast. I think seeing the hazards is fine to be honest. It's difficult to pick up to start with but you soon learn what's ahead. That's kinda the point in replaying levels too, so you can learn the level and better your own personal record. Also, as much as Yahtzee amuses me, everything he says is basically complaining for the sake of complaining, because that's his thing. The things he says makes me laugh but a lot of the time, they're just not true.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 27, 2012 14:42:21 GMT
I think seeing the hazards is fine to be honest. It's difficult to pick up to start with but you soon learn what's ahead. That's kinda the point in replaying levels too, so you can learn the level and better your own personal record. Having to know what's coming in order to get anywhere is tedious nonsense and shouldn't be in any game ever. That said, that's not something I came across in Generations, really. I thought it did a good job of broadcasting what was coming and giving you reasonable time to react.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 27, 2012 14:42:42 GMT
I think seeing the hazards is fine to be honest. It's difficult to pick up to start with but you soon learn what's ahead. That's kinda the point in replaying levels too, so you can learn the level and better your own personal record. Also, as much as Yahtzee amuses me, everything he says is basically complaining for the sake of complaining, because that's his thing. The things he says makes me laugh but a lot of the time, they're just not true. Oh totally, provided one replays. But it seems a lot of complaints are directed towards having to replay, and assuming one only wants to do levels once(which these days is foolish policy, as without replayability, you are paying 10 dollars an hour for a Sonic game - story included).
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Jan 27, 2012 14:43:50 GMT
I think seeing the hazards is fine to be honest. It's difficult to pick up to start with but you soon learn what's ahead. That's kinda the point in replaying levels too, so you can learn the level and better your own personal record. Also, as much as Yahtzee amuses me, everything he says is basically complaining for the sake of complaining, because that's his thing. The things he says makes me laugh but a lot of the time, they're just not true. Having to know what's coming in order to get anywhere is tedious nonsense and shouldn't be in any game ever. Rayman Origins.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 27, 2012 14:45:37 GMT
It wasn't in Rayman Origins. All of the treasure chest levels are feasible on the first go. You are expected to maintain a really fast pace and reaction time, but that's true even when you know what's coming.
Unless you mean the boss battles, in which case, yeah, some of that was a bit bull[censored] but you were restarted, what, a minute or so earlier with no penalty?
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 27, 2012 14:48:15 GMT
I'm just glad the QTEs didn't make a return. When I saw that bit with the Chopper, I was all, "Aww hell, required QTEs AGAIN?"
Fortunately they just made it so you can rack up extra boosts while in mid-air.
...because required QTEs are insane. Eggmanland and Dark Gaia come to mind. Usually there's a difficulty curve. Nope. Unleashed had a Difficulty Everest.
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Post by Nam on Jan 27, 2012 23:41:47 GMT
No invisible walls, but many many places where you either jump down, and can't get back up, go from 3D to 2D with a zipline/canon/something else, and can't return, or many things hidden with collapsing platforms that don't respawn. Seriously, the way I managed to get the five rings in each planet wisp level, was with a video guide, and suiciding everytime I messed up on a non-returning temporary platform, making sure not to touch any checkpoints if I missed a ring. As I recall... back in the old games, you rarely got all the goodies on the first try either. Never mind, the higher you go the harder it is to stay up there, but you find a lot of goodies you'd otherwise not get. I find it odd that, despite this being the formula for the first few games, the retro fans are disapproving. But here's the thing; red rings are required for 100% completion. Extra lives, short cuts, alternate routes with nice little bonus shields as well as novel sprites such as the Sonic Cd hidden statue, aren't. If you fall off a path playing through Sonic 3 and Knuckles, you fall to a lower one, but can continue, and still have ample opportunity to find enough stuff to get all 14 emeralds. However, in Colours and in Generations you need each and every red ring. Not some of them, all of them, which means you have to take a certain path in order to get them (or as Shay pointed out, only get some in one playthrough, then take an alternate path). It's not exploration, it's forced guide look-up, as you're forced to go a way that's counter intuitive, not immediately obvious, and not what you'd naturally do. Rather than looking for optional routes and being rewarded for taking a harder to get to area, you're punished for not getting through the harder to get areas by missing the rings.
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Post by madhair60 on Jan 28, 2012 10:38:57 GMT
I hate Adventure fields, they are an enormous expanse of [censored]-all with not a single interesting or redeeming thing about them. They are distance between me and the next level.
Love the Red Rings. Of course they're optional. 100% completion is optional. Maybe if you have OCD they're not optional. I haven't bothered with them yet but I won't mind running back through to find them eventually, the levels are fun enough for me to merit the effort required.
Everyone on the entire internet: EVERY GAME IS WORSE THAN SONIC 3 AND KNUCKLES. NO GAMES COMPARE FAVOURABLY. LEARN THIS AND YOU MAY ENJOY SONIC ONCE MORE AS I HAVE LEARNED TO.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 28, 2012 11:18:43 GMT
Oh yeah, that was something I missed: Adventure fields can just get lost for reasons described above.
I wish to stress that I think the Red Ring system is ace. I just think that they need to be placed in areas where they have to be rooted out and found (a la Colours), rather than placed in easy-to-see, difficult-to-get-to locations that require multiple playthroughs because you can't backtrack (a la Generations). It does smack of artificial lengthening. Not a huge problem at all, just a bit suspect.
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Post by Moo on Jan 28, 2012 13:06:38 GMT
Why has this game gone up in price. =|
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Post by ShayMay on Feb 13, 2012 18:22:54 GMT
The following is the unedited version of my Sonic Generations review. Retro told me to cut it down, but [censored] the police, it's going here.
Sonic Generations kicks off the blue blur’s third decade of cacomorphobia by taking a look back at his past exploits. Every major console game in the series is represented here – all the way from his not-so-humble beginnings through to Sonic Colours. And the game does a good job of doing justice the history of Sonic. All of the levels are well-designed re-imaginings of Zones old and new, and while the set pieces (such as City Escape’s truck chase and Planet Wisp’s... well, Wisps) are in there and instantly recognisable, they have enough twists and tricks up their sleeve to keep even a veteran Sonic player on their toes.
The story is bare-bones and simplistic – and that’s just the way it should be. A mysterious force kidnaps Sonic’s chums and essentially breaks time, allowing Sonic to meet his past self. It’s up to Sonic and... er... Sonic to stop this mysterious force by accelerating through scenes from his past, which will let time sort itself out after being given a kick-start by the two hedgehogs, which is an incredible piece of techno-babble that makes no sense but makes no apologies for it. While this simplistic approach is welcome, you can’t help but feel that there are a lot of missed opportunities for some truly hilarious dialogue. Sonic and Tails (and Sonic and Tails) accept their situation without any sort of problem or interaction, and so there is lots of potential for little jokes and jabs that are unfortunately skimmed over. What’s there is great fun, but the tragedy is that it leaves the player wanting much more.
Presentation-wise, there isn’t much to fault. All of the level aesthetics are instantly recognisable, and despite the abundance of urban levels (Speed Highway, City Escape, Crisis City and Rooftop Run comprising almost half of the game’s content), nothing ever feels recycled. The animations and textures, while not pixel-perfect if you stand still and stare at them, do a brilliant job of lending to the sense of speed and the thrill of hurling a spiky insectivore through scenarios he has no business hurling through. The music has had a similar lavish job performed on it, particular highlights being the classic remix of Speed Highway and the piano-heavy rendition of Rooftop Run. However, despite most of the music being excellent, some of the customisable tunes (as yes, you can unlock songs and use them in levels as you see fit) are lacking, especially the Mega Drive remixes, which are of a noticeably low quality. While loading times (on the PC version at least) are virtually non-existent, it comes at the cost of some horrendous slow-down during particular sections. One part of Chemical Plant chugs along at what must be, with no hint of irony or exaggeration, two frames per second, which is a shame as it is probably the most thrilling part of the level.
The gameplay is a bit of a mixed bag. Upon first playing, you’re greeted with a familiar control scheme for both classic and modern Sonic – anyone who’s played the Mega Drive games and the recent Unleashed and Colours will be able to pick this up and play with no worries, and for those who haven’t, it’s simple enough and you’ll soon get the hang of it. However, it’s nowhere near perfect. Both Sonics have a noticeable delay to their actions – especially when performed in quick succession, which the levels frequently require you to do. Classic Sonic cannot jump nearly as high or as far as he feels like he should, and neither does he gain momentum whilst in a ball, which, for anyone who is used to the feel of the Mega Drive games, can sometimes lead to some extreme misjudgements. These control issues don’t crop up most of the time, but they happen more often than they should, and usually with dire consequences. In addition, the levels are designed more like race-courses with jumps rather than platforming romps: an emphasis on speed-running rather than exploration in both classic and modern Sonic’s levels kill the replay value somewhat. One final gripe occurs in modern Speed Highway, it suffering a glitch in which the camera takes a top-down view during a busy highway section. The glitch has cropped up with startling frequency, and has sent Sonic careering into many a car, as it is virtually impossible to maneuver with the camera pointing the wrong way.
However, these are all niggles, rather than major, game breaking issues, and your first time through the game you’ll barely notice them. And what a treat that first playthrough is – the pace simply does not let up. You’re bounced from level to level, each lasting around two to three minutes, with nary a cutscene or side-mission to stand in your way (and what side-missions there are are, for the most part, optional – you’re only forced to do one for every Zone, and they’re usually fun). However, after perhaps two or three hours (despite having done every side-quest available, Steam claimed that Sonic Generations had been played for nary three), the game crunches to a halt. Planet Wisp replaces the quick, fun romps with a huge monstrosity of a level that gets old around halfway through its length, and, unbelievably, the game only gets worse from there. The final boss is dreadful, certainly the worst climax in the entire series.
The game, as a whole, takes around four hours to complete 100%, and you’re left wanting so much more. There is incentive to go back and complete the missions you didn’t get around to the first time (unlocking some new power-ups for Sonic, most of which are pretty non-descript is all well and good, but it’s the incredible artwork and music tracks that are worth putting the time in for), and this is a solid package overall, but the short length and the control issues make it hard to recommend at the full forty pounds, especially with the stiff competition it’s facing in the aftermath to the jam-packed 2011 holiday season. If you’ve stuck with Sonic through thick and thin, you can certainly do much worse than this (and there will certainly be at least one part that’ll tickle your nostalgia bone), but if you’re new to the franchise, there won’t be as much for you here.
Although if you’re not familiar with Sonic, what on Earth are you doing reading this?!
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Feb 13, 2012 21:54:18 GMT
Adventure fields hold a nostalgic element for me. I don't mind making them entirely optional, of course, merely containing bonuses. But I enjoy having them. I wish Generations had an actual field, but given how it would look odd seeing Classic move about in a 3D environment, I don't blame them for eliminating it. Final boss in Gens was indeed anticlimactic. As nice as the theme was - it was foreboding - it lacked the hopeful theme that has been the trend for TWELVE - read, more than half of Sonic's lifespan - years. I was grossly disappointed at the lack of a theme and/or orchestral version of it. Never mind being told something's a homing attack every two seconds makes it kind of annoying. I am indifferent to story, though I certainly do have a thing for more complex ones - I enjoy Kingdom Hearts for Enerjak's sake. They also remind me of Sonic Adventure 2, which as my favorite game, means they always tend to get an A in my book. Unless they are crappily thrown together, like 06's - Sega had the foresight to obliterate that from continuity, however. Sure, I'm banking on nostalgia in many things, but who doesn't.
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Feb 14, 2012 15:30:08 GMT
nice review shay. But do you think you could give it a numeric judgment?
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Post by ShayMay on Feb 14, 2012 15:40:42 GMT
Let's have a self-intervention and be true to ourselves for a minute here because despite its one really retarded flaw Sonic Generations is the best game for the Wii in ages. I give it six golden bananas plus out of Shigeru Miyamoto.
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Post by Juliett. Bravo. Alfa. on Feb 14, 2012 20:51:31 GMT
Right.
Right. Topic nicked from Retro time.
So, Which Generations levels (if any)do you think outdid the originals?
Green Hill :- No. Very fun opener, doesn't outdo the original. Doesn't help that when ever Sonic appears in a non Sonic game Green Hill is always used.
Chemical Plant :- No. But I did get a nostalgia boner for this level.
Sky Sanctuary :- Yes. Thought it was weird that SS made it in and so many S3K levels that were better weren't used. But gosh darn it, proved it could be an awesome level.
Vs Metal Sonic :- No. The fun with the original was that it was a race. You can clout Metal Sonic about in this.
Vs Death Egg Robot :- No. Just lost a lot of the threat factor.
Speed Highway :- No. Fun level but felt a bit too Empire City is and no "At Dawn" section as well. Would have been perfect for Classic Sonic.
City Escape :- No. Like Speed Highway really. Modern expands on the level a lot but doesn't feel like City Escape. It was a bit claustraphobic and the Truck Chase part was ruined.
Seaside Hill :- Yes. Surprise that one. Even though it was a Fusion of SH and OP, Generations gave the level a purpose. To be a Hydrocity/Labyrinth rip.
Vs Shadow :- No. Like the Metal Sonic. Added too much stuff rather than a fight along an infinite track.
Vs Perfect Chaos :- No. I did like the fight in Generations and I kinda thought it would have been better if you gathered the Chaos Emeralds, ducking and dodging [censored]e being thrown at you or something, if you had to play as Normal Sonic.
Crisis City :- Yes. Level still looks really [censored]ing out of place though.
Rooftop Run :- Yes. The splash of colour really livens the place up and There was no reason to think Classic RR would turn out as good as it did.
Planet Wisp :- Not sure. Didn't like Planet Wisp in Sonic Colours as well.
Vs Silver :- Yes. That is all.
Vs Egg Dragoon :- Not sure. Couldn't remember Egg Dragoon in Unleashed that much. You played as Werehog though. And for some reason I found this boss frustrating as hell in Generations.
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Post by ShayMay on Feb 14, 2012 21:14:45 GMT
Righty-ho.
Green Hill: No. Lack of exploration, overplayed nostalgia card, and suffers from early Sonic level syndrome - there isn't a huge amount of interaction or danger involved, you just kind of sit there holding X and occasionally pressing A or B depending on whether the obstacle is low or high. The classic version is well-designed, but hardly as explorable as the original.
Chemical Plant: Er... no, but it's a close no. I actually really like this: the original Chemical Plant was thrilling in all the same ways this one was - it was fast-paced and involved high-speed, forward-moving platforming, which Sonic needs more of. The original just inches out because the classic one was... a bit unmemorable.
Sky Sanctuary: No. The original had a real story impact, and the level and boss battles were insanely fun to play. This version... ooh... I'd say the level design comes close to beating it, but just isn't quite as... satisfying. The modern level is more thrilling than the original could ever hope to be, but it's like a packet of crisps compared with a full, luscious dinner.
Metallix: Yes. Just. The original was an amazing concept executed terribly (seriously, go back and play it. Your speed is continually murdered), and this was a terrible concept executed well. If they'd made this a race to the finish like the original rather than effectively "press A at the right moment", this would be a definite win - as it stands I'm not fond of either of them.
Death Egg Robot: No way in hell. No tension, the platforming was dodgy, and the nostalgia had been wrecked by them using it already in Sonic 4: Episode 1.
Speed Highway: No. This level really annoys me for a few reasons: the original had this amazing progression from atop a skyscraper looking down on a bustling city, to running through the streets in this beautiful free-running section. If the final section of Speed Highway was the way they chose to handle 3D Sonic as a whole I'd be over the moon. Conversely, the Generations version has camera glitches and a very... Unleashed playstyle - press A at the right moment to get the best time. Also, the Goin' Down section is just... tremendously dull. Classic Sonic's was alright, nothing too memorable. Although the remixes for Generations blow the original out of the water.
City Escape: Level-wise? Yes. The original never did anything for me and this was a real improvement over it, especially classic Sonic's level. Remix-wise? [censored] no.
Seaside Hill: Yes. An actual interesting level made from what was just... run down a white road for a while and listen to the characters spew their bloody dialogue.
Shadow: No idea why this gets the hate it does. The Generations is far superior to the original - in this you actually have to employ tactics rather than just wail on Shadow in this really drawn-out "fight". Again, a much better concept would have been a race, imo, but the spectacle and sense of speed really clinched this.
Perfect Chaos: Hell to the [censored] yes. Music was dull, but stick on the original Open Your Heart and you're set for one of the most memorable boss battles ever made 10x better. The tension, the music, the level design... running up a wall, leaping over a giant tentacle smashing a building and managing to make your way to Chaos feels a million times better than just running towards him on a flat surface, and that final platforming section was the stuff of legends. [censored]s all over the original, and I like his re-design too.
Crisis City: Don't be dense of course it is.
Rooftop Run: Don't be dense of course it is.
Planet Wisp: Don't be dense of course it isn't. Colours' Planet Wisp? An excellent blend of clever application of Wisp powers and speed - the best part of Colours by far. Generations' Planet Wisp? Classic was a frustrating mess, and modern was a frustrating mess that is even more tragic due to that opening sequence, which was beautiful.
Silver: Don't be dense of course it is.
Egg Dragoon: Yes. Not the most well-designed boss ever, but a damn lick better than that really tedious Werehog fight.
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Post by Nam on Feb 14, 2012 22:47:09 GMT
Green Hill Zone has always been a very "meh" level for me. The original is kinda dull, with very little of interest aside from having a visually interesting style, Generations can't recapture that, but gives much more credence into visually stunning layout in a lot of places. I prefer the latter, but only just.
I was really unimpressed with the dark skies Chemical Plant had. It was kinda too murky, and the place seemed too dirty in places, whereas the original was a vibrant and functional level. But then there's a point about two thirds in where you see the level in a ruined form, which for me was worth it, and made the level more interesting to look at and to play in. But really, I didn't feel it was all that different to play, both are fast dash levels, with water to avoid.
I didn't like Generations version of Sky Sanctuary. I did not think this was the best choice of S3&K levels, I did not like all the added plants and animals, and I was not a fan of the fact that the level missed the point of the original. The original Sky Sanctuary was a mad chase after the Death Egg, with Mecha Sonic out to delay your progress. Generations version was a casual stroll through some ruins, occasionally harrassed by Egg-Robo's, and featuring annoying Marble Garden platforms.
Speed Highway wasn't really any different in all honesty. Yes, Generations was HD, and had a good classic remix, but really the levels sort of played the same to me. It was a recycled level, nothing added, nothing removed. Too close to call which was better, though I don't miss the daytime section, and did like some of the little things (like running across some highways, not along them).
City Escape is just so much better in Generations. Without question. For one thing, the truck is just ridiculous. It's gigantic, and chases down a blue hedgehog, smashing cars out of it's way. It seems completely absurd, yet the remake version gave it three circular saws, rocket thrusters that allow it to drive along the side of a wall, and gets destroyed by crashing into a highway support. City Escape Classic gives some proper speed based platforming, with platforms that, if you're too slow, get destroyed, forcing you to miss out on bonuses and easier routes. The level is an actual point of interest in Generations, whereas it always just sorta seemed a bit like a forced set piece in SA2.
I can't say I care too much for Seaside Hill in Generations. Yes, it being the underwater temple adds variety, but from an aesthetic standpoint, the underwater sections are visually dull, and to play they don't really do anything interesting. It is better to play through the level as one character, rather than three, but it doesn't really try to do anything creative, just play homage to the main gimmicks of that level in Heroes, and add water.
It's obvious that Generations Crisis City plays better than '06's offering. But it's still not a great level. Yes, the classic levels troll post is a great trick, and a good way to tease the experienced players, but otherwise it's really not all that special. While generations version of this level is better, it's only better because Generations as a whole is a better built game, not because they did something more interesting with it.
I never played Unleashed, so I can't comment too much on Rooftop Run as a comparison. However, Rooftop Run was, IMO one of the better levels in generations, with great music, awesome level design and layout, a few interesting gimmicks, and a level with a distinct set of areas to go through, that seem to naturally flow somewhere, and make it feel like you're actually traveling through a real place, and not just hundreds of identical looking corridors and fields. In a few short minutes, you go from the outskirts of the town, through a university, into a wine cellar, across the rooftops, into the main city, up the top of an enormous clock tower, then onto a large bridge, always chasing towards an attacking Robotnik ship.
And then Planet Wisp I never really cared too much for either version, but then I never really cared too much for the wisps. I think the generations version is better, primarily because A) there are less wisps, and B) because you can just press a button to activate them, rather than waggling the Wii-mote, which (to me at least) seems quicker in activating. Both levels are generally samey slogs through an interesting looking mechanised alien world, that while looking interesting, aren't really anything noteworthy to play through.
Bosses wise, Metal Sonic is a better fight, but lacks the epic feeling his CD counterpart has. Death Egg Robot is a good boss fight, but much too easy, and really seems like a waste of a boss compared to what it was in Sonic 2. Perfect Chaos is IMO better, if only because there's more to it than just "dodge and dash", but Shadow essentially was turned into a race for power ups boss fight (a bit like Ripto in Spyro 2). Silver was infinitely better than in '06 not being the cheap [censored], and actually being able to survive more than just three hits to the head made him an actual challenge. Finally, I can't really comment on comparing Egg Dragoons, but this version is quite cheap at times, and a bit bugger in switching from 3D to 2D.
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Post by Balls on Feb 14, 2012 22:48:10 GMT
alright then
Green Hill Classic: No. A problem that thankfully didn't carry through for the rest of the game, but it was too short. I was worried this would happen in this game due to only having one act per level and with Green Hill I was right on the money. Not enough exploration and just not that impressive.
Modern Green Hill: No. This level worried me when I first watched it on YouTube before release. A complete removal of any of the exploration and platforming I was fond of in Sonic Colours, leaving nothing but a linear and unimpressive experience. I don't hate it and it's still fun to speed run it, but not what I was hoping for at all.
Classic Chemical Plant: No. Pretty much the same problems as classic Green Hill. Nothing particularly interesting and new, and damn short.
Modern Chemical Plant: Yes. This is where the game really kicks off. It captures the same feeling you get from it first time around: fast paced fun and perfect for a second level. It opens up a bit compared to Green Hill- particularly in the 2D sections- and reassured me that modern Sonic in this game wasn't gonna be linear drivel.
Metal Sonic: Yes. The original was terrible.
Classic Sky Sanctuary: Yes. Bigger and better with tonnes of exploration. Music is an improvement too.
Modern Sky Sanctuary: The first example of "this is how 3D Sonic should be." This level truly raises the bar for the standards of modern Sonic. Astounding visuals, a lot of exploration and some genuinely good 3D platforming. 3D platforming literally never having been done well in a Sonic game before. The first actually good 3D Sonic was Colours and that didn't have any 3D platforming. This does and I salute it. All around great level.
Death Egg Robot: Tie. No tension or threat, but I just can't get over how (and I hate to use the word) epic it feels. Music is excellent.
Classic Speed Highway: Yes. The better of the two acts. The first truly interesting classic level in the game as it's not been done in classic before. Just really nicely pulled off. Fantastic music remix, too.
Modern Speed Highway: Yes, and I don't see how anyone can think otherwise. I can only assume that if you oppose this view you literally haven't played Sonic Adventure. Clunky broken mess first time around. This version isn't even anything special as it's a simple hold boost to win affair, but it beats every single level in Sonic Adventure by default.
Classic City Escape: Yes. I really enjoyed this level. Even the music. One of the more hold right to win classic levels, but a really fun take on the original (pretty poor) Sonic Adventure 2 version.
Modern City Escape: No. It's pretty much exactly the same but somehow even less varied. Than Sonic Adventure 2, which, while enjoyable to an extend, is showing its age now. This level literally has no substance. Two barely interactive set-pieces with about a minute of sub-par gameplay linking them together. Worst level in the game, hands down.
Shadow No. Better designed but with literally zero challenge.
Classic Seaside Hill: Yes. To say it's better by default due to Sonic Heroes being crap is true but doesn't do it justice. Struggling to stay on the high route and keep your feet dry or just diving the [censored] in and powering your way through the underwater sections is like playing two entirely different levels. This is S3K standard stuff right here.
Modern Seaside Hill: Holy [censored] yes. If modern Sky Sanctuary raised the bar, Seaside Hill hopped over that bar with so much elegance and grace and making it look effortless. Perfect balance between 2D and 3D sections, perfect balance between routes for the fast and reckless players and the slow and precise. You can play this level ten times and never take the same route twice. Music and visuals are great too.
Perfect Chaos: Obviously yes. The original fight was drivel and this one was a really well executed level/boss type thing.
Classic Crisis City: Yes. Easily the most atmospheric of the classic levels in the game. The level feels really threatening and has the troll post. And oh my God the music is good.
Modern Crisis City: Yes. The first challenging 3D level in the game, but not in a frustrating way. Good show indeed.
Silver: Yes because it didn't give me cancer.
Classic Rooftop Run: This level felt really weird to me, but I still quite liked it. As one of the only people in the world who was fairly fond of daytime Unleashed, though, I'm afraid I prefer the original. It was one of Unleashed's better levels and it just about beats this.
Modern Rooftop Run: Yes. Yes yes yes. Colourful, varied, downright thrilling, stunning visuals and cheery, brilliant music. Best level in the game.
Classic Planet Wisp: Nah. I don't think it's a bad level, but I'm not crazy about it. Can be a bit annoying at times. Visually pretty bland, too.
Modern Wisp: Definitely not. Worse in every way. You spend the whole level in the mining area- leaving you with bland visuals, the music is worse, there are no Wisps to piss about with to add variety. And there's about 2 seconds of 3D gameplay and that's it.
Egg Dragoon: Yes because you're not a Werehog.
This entire post is correct and any other views you express will inevitably be [censored].
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JJ
Script Hume
Bit of a hack, really.
Posts: 4,902
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Post by JJ on Feb 14, 2012 23:01:43 GMT
I'd post but Mitch nailed it, couldn't've said it better.
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