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Post by Mecha HMS on May 2, 2011 22:49:45 GMT
Actually was humming Oil Ocean not Chemical Plant but I must agree Sonic 3 and Knuckles is far superior to Sonic 2 in every way possible.
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Post by madhair60 on May 3, 2011 10:37:42 GMT
The frequently cited "best" aspect of Sonic CD - the Metal Sonic race in Stardust Speedway - is in fact the worst part of the game. It's a tedious, overly-difficult load of toss, completely at odds with the clever, careful design of the rest of the game. If you want to play Sonic CD properly and get a Good Future in every act, you'll need to plan like the dickens. Find the "past" trigger, then scope out a route that will allow you to hit it, and maintain your speed long and fast enough to achieve the time travel. Then, you must seek out and destroy Robotnik's weird machine thing. You can also destroy a weird projection of Metal Sonic, but I'm not sure what the purpose of that is!
The intricacy and genius of the level design is only apparent when you play it for real. Running through like another Sonic game is not a fun way to play, though they still allow you to get a good ending via the Time Stones (which aren't hard to get).
Also, Sonic CD has the best Time Attack, simply because it saves all your best times and grants unlockables for getting below a certain threshold.
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Post by Baron Canier on May 3, 2011 10:47:33 GMT
You can also destroy a weird projection of Metal Sonic, but I'm not sure what the purpose of that is! Destorying the hologram of Metal Sonic causes random clusters of animal friends to appear in the levels. I think it's meant to imply that you somehow stop him from catching/killing the animals.
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Post by Juliett. Bravo. Alfa. on May 3, 2011 16:11:40 GMT
I have more fond memories with Sonic 2. You had going too fast the screen cant keep up, gambling, Sky Chase and the first Metal Sonic.
Trouble with Sonic 3 (more than Sonic 3 and K) is that a lot of the "iconic" moments of the game are too controlled by the game.
I mean the flying battery bit in Angel Island. Even as a child with no real concept of programming or what the ever witchcraft went into making games, I could feel that I was running up against a wall.
Snowboarding bit was fun but all you could do was jump and it wasn't like there was a lot of secrets during that segment. Plus if you wanted Tails and (for me the more cooler of all the playable characters back in '94) Knuckles snowboarding the game took a big fat [censored] you dump on your chest and have those two start at the bit just after the snowboarding.
On top of that The barrel room from Carnival Night still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
The Sonic and Knuckles part brought the entire game (S3K) up to scratch though.
I mean Sonic 2 Vs Sonic 3 and Knuckles - yeah Sonic 3K > Sonic 2. But I still prefer Sonic 2. Its like there is no real reason for it other than those 3 minor quibbles. Hell if the barrel room was explained in the manual like it was for the JPN manual then I might be saying these people are drunk Mr Stu.
But I'm channelling my 10 year old self and he's saying Sonic 2 is better than Sonic 3K.
Also he is saying that Alex is playing Sonic CD wrong.
Also he asks what happens to the Sonic franchise in the future? I stopped channelling then really. Didn't want to break his heart.
On Sonic CD it was meant to be released before Sonic 2. But the Mega CD was delayed. One of the pictures has Tails saying "see you in the next game." Plus Sonic 2 and CD had two different leads and teams one was Naka and STI and the other was Oshima and Sonic Team.
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Post by ShayMay on May 3, 2011 16:38:17 GMT
That's a bit harsh, I mean, sure, they mucked up the later Sonic games, but accusing them all of having AIDS, herpes, etc. is a step too far, I think. lol
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Post by Nam on May 3, 2011 17:24:06 GMT
On Sonic CD it was meant to be released before Sonic 2. But the Mega CD was delayed. One of the pictures has Tails saying "see you in the next game." Plus Sonic 2 and CD had two different leads and teams one was Naka and STI and the other was Oshima and Sonic Team. This logic always annoyed me. The picture in question: Always seemed as more of a hint of Sonic Drift. I mean just look at Tails' car in that game. (linked for size) Sure, it's a diferent colour, and the headlights are different, but it's otherwise similar. Admittedly Sonic Drift was five games later, and there were at least two games before it that had Tails as a playable character, but still, the car always struck me as odd for something that was to promote Sonic 2, seeing how the closest you get to a car in that game is the first boss...
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Post by Beeth on May 3, 2011 17:29:46 GMT
It always bugged me as well, that one. Mostly, I reckoned it had something to do with Tails' long unmentioned (albeit suggested anyway, what with the biplane etc) abilities as a mechanic and vehicular enthusiast.
In the end, I resigned to thinking that Judy Totoya was just taking liberties with the artwork.
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Post by Baron Canier on May 3, 2011 17:48:19 GMT
Early Sonic artwork is full of the characters doing random stuff. Tails standing beside a car was probably just for visual variety.
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Post by Alex on May 3, 2011 17:50:58 GMT
It's clearly an explanation for why he wasn't in the game. He was too busy cruising for chicks.
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Post by Samface on May 3, 2011 18:34:19 GMT
The frequently cited "best" aspect of Sonic CD - the Metal Sonic race in Stardust Speedway - is in fact the worst part of the game. It's a tedious, overly-difficult load of toss, completely at odds with the clever, careful design of the rest of the game. Love you. I have for many years been at a loss as to why people rave about that bit. It's terrible.
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Post by Baron Canier on May 3, 2011 18:38:07 GMT
Probably because it's the only time you really interact with Metal Sonic. It's also an unorthodox boss.
I'm not too keen on it, personally. Odds are just stacked so high against you.
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Post by MentalAnalysis on May 3, 2011 19:03:16 GMT
Speaking of Metal Sonic, he looked so much cooler than the one in Sonic CD.
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Post by Emilybee on May 3, 2011 19:03:46 GMT
Part of the hate for S3 was Knuckles' introduction. Don't know why but there was a lot of hate in America for Knuckles, add the cartridge split up... Some game reviewers nowadays are really harsh, it was partly because Knuckles was so asbtract then even Tails and Sonic.
I think the music for S3 and s&K knocked socks off most of the previous games and the Sonic 3 multiplayer mode was simple, fast and enjoyable.
Honestly, its one of my favourite 2D platformers for Sonic games, the closet I've enjoyed since is Sonic colours on the DS.
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Post by MentalAnalysis on May 3, 2011 19:12:02 GMT
Knuckles' introduction was interesting because you assumed he was a bad guy at first. With Tails, it felt like they just threw in in there because Sonic apparently needed a friend (I first assumed that you were supposed to run away from the fox, seeing as you were playing as a hedgehog). But as you play through S3K, Knuckles realises that Robotnick was simply using him from the beginning, and after a little moment, we see Knuckles piecing things together in his head on what's really going on. Knuckles then then gives Sonic the "thumbs up" showing that he's on your side now.
(of course, after looking at the cover art and a cartoon afterwards, its clear that Tails is you best pal)
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Spudiator
Artist Hume
High Priest of the Religion of Football
STC-O's resident footy obsessive
Posts: 2,815
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Post by Spudiator on May 3, 2011 19:19:23 GMT
The Metallix race in Sonic CD was annoying granted, but it could've been great. It was obviously intended to be an iconic part of the game, it was just poorly executed.
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Post by madhair60 on May 3, 2011 19:20:34 GMT
Sure, it's a diferent colour, and the headlights are different, but it's otherwise similar. The only similarity is that they are both cars. The "CD was meant to be first" logic is a thousand times more convincing than this: ...Were you joking?
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Post by Baron Canier on May 3, 2011 19:21:06 GMT
After a little moment, we see Knuckles piecing things together in his head on what's really going on. Yeah, all it took was having his life's work stolen and then getting subsequently electrocuted. Bright kid, that Knuckles.
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Post by rj on May 3, 2011 21:43:18 GMT
Speaking of Metal Sonic, he looked so much cooler than the one in Sonic CD. Going to stop you there; 3K's Mecha is vastly inferior, from an aesthetic point of view, to CD's. The whole "CD is a prequel to 2" makes sense given that CD's Metal design is in very many ways the purest one. It's an absolutely perfect antithesis to Sonic's design, one that strips it down to the barest essentials and turns it. I'm perhaps biased (you all know this from how much I've ranted about it) but CD will always be the best Sonic game, with 3K very close behind. I take issue with one point in your OP in particular; S3K is beautifully designed, to be sure, but it's far and away not the best looking game ever made. Aesthetic, as much as you might like, is not even close to being purely objective. That being said, it's definitely not a game I would be mad at for being considered as such; to put it simply, the game is really goddamned lush. There's detail crawling in every single tiny [censored]ing area of the screen at every time, and not a pixel is clutter. But CD is much more unique. It stands alone out of the original 2D Sonics for being the most geometrically composed, which at first can feel almost disappointing in comparison to the relatively meticulous and organic (especially in the case of S3K) look of the rest of the games. But then you get to actually playing it. The way that each area morphs between its four states is simply mindblowing; the first time I played through CD I remember making a point to go to all of the areas simply so I could see what they looked like. It takes the Sonic 1 design and throws it through a cyberpunk blender without removing what made it very obviously Sonic 1 (as Sonic 2 and beyond did); it was very much an evolution, in the purest sense. Sonic CD is, although not as technically impressive as S3K, better on a conceptual level. The futures in particular represent some of the best-looking, most aesthetically brilliant designs in 2D games. Also: CD has the best soundtrack, unequivocally. Either one of the two it lays claim to is essentially perfect; the international mix is more consistently well-produced and the USA mix is more compositionally memorable, but each complements the game with no problems, sometimes in brilliantly unexpected ways. Perhaps I hyperbole/overadjective/words. I'm talking about a long-dead (at least creatively) game series about a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Those of you who would point out that that isn't an excuse, because it's a perfectly valid, educated discussion on culture and the way games work in general, and that the above statement is textbook fallacy; uh uh uhhhhhh how shameful edit: also, on a supremely ironic note, the tune I had in my head when you mentioned music was the Marble Garden theme. I hadn't even read that far to trigger the reaction, and was trying actively to figure out what level exactly it was from. dat basssssssss
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Post by Moo on May 3, 2011 21:56:38 GMT
I've been playing Sonic 3 and Knuckles again on Steam Gee, sure was nice of whoever got you that to get you it huh? You know, takes a really fantastic person to buy games for you on Steam, dunnit? Not to mention a hot, attractive person. I'll stop.
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on May 3, 2011 23:17:40 GMT
Also: CD has the best soundtrack, unequivocally. Either one of the two it lays claim to is essentially perfect; the international mix is more consistently well-produced and the USA mix is more compositionally memorable, but each complements the game with no problems, sometimes in brilliantly unexpected ways. Ah, man, you know, I just can't agree with this There are a few tracks on CD's listing that I enjoy but very, very few are catchy like the best Sonic themes in my opinion.
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on May 4, 2011 0:34:52 GMT
I've been playing Sonic 3 and Knuckles again on Steam Gee, sure was nice of whoever got you that to get you it huh? You know, takes a really fantastic person to buy games for you on Steam, dunnit? Not to mention a hot, attractive person. But I didn't buy him it on Steam? :S
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Post by Nam on May 4, 2011 7:58:51 GMT
Also: CD has the best soundtrack, unequivocally. Either one of the two it lays claim to is essentially perfect; the international mix is more consistently well-produced and the USA mix is more compositionally memorable, but each complements the game with no problems, sometimes in brilliantly unexpected ways. Ah, man, you know, I just can't agree with this There are a few tracks on CD's listing that I enjoy but very, very few are catchy like the best Sonic themes in my opinion. Agreed. I can't honestly recall a single song from either soundtrack off the top of my head (save for the opening and closing themes in both versions, and that's more because they're sat on my MP3 as guilty pleasures). I remember the US Boss music as being disturbing, but I can't recall how it actually goes. Compare that to many other games, old and new, and I can recall the music almost instantly.
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Post by Balls on May 4, 2011 13:02:30 GMT
I agree with X almost entirely about Sonic CD, here.
Only difference is, I find it to say which game I prefer, as they are too different from each other. Stating which I prefer out of Sonic 2 and S3K is easy, as they're both essentially the same format.
Sonic CD's something else, though. While I can't say it's better than S3K, I can definitely say it's a more worthy sequel to Sonic 1 than Sonic 2 ever was.
Basically, Sonic 2 was faster and more exciting than Sonic 1, which I suppose is why it's loved. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and wasn't taken to the extremes of, say, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Rush or Sonic Unleashed, did neglect a lot of what made Sonic 1 special. A lot of Sonic 1's variation, exploration and solid platforming just didn't return for Sonic 2.
Sonic CD, however, has this in [censored]ing spades. It is hands down the best game in the series for exploration. In the MD trilogy, while exploration is fun and great, you lack the motivation as you get better at it. While, yes, Sonic 1 and S3K were packed with secret areas and hidden treasures, at least half of which I probably still haven't found two decades on, they just- and it's not the game's fault- aren't necessary for me.
Like, if I go through a hidden wall or find a new route, I'll probably get an extra life or an invincibility or something. And these are things I just don't need or care about anymore, and so my goal does just become "grab chaos emeralds as soon as possible then [censored]ing run through the game." Still, S3K masters the Super Sonic ability by still forcing you to perform some decent platforming while in Super form, and cleverly making boss introduction sequences such that, if you've been super for the whole level you'll probably run out by the time you reach the boss. He's still a game breaker, but in Sonic 2 he absolutely wrecks the game.
Sonic 1 isn't given enough credit here, in my opinion. How many of you acquire all the Chaos Emeralds by Chemical Plant Act 1/Hydrocity Act 2 and just blast through the rest of the game? I'm not even sure of the level layouts in some of the later levels because I never slowed down to scope around- especially in Sonic 2.
No, Sonic 1 required you to strategically find your way from the beginning to the end of each level in the game and is bloody wonderful for it.
And to tie this in to the point of this post, the only game to improve on this, in my opininion, is Sonic CD. Sonic CD continues and improves on Sonic 1's legacy better than any other game in the series.
S3K, on the other hand, took the finer aspects of Sonic 2, while bringing back at least a certain level of Sonic 1's design (but a lot faster paced), and is a giant, awesome experience.
So yeah, S3K and Sonic CD are tied for me, as they're both sequels to different games and branch out in different ways that are almost incomparable.
Also, visually, they're about equal, in my opinion.
Also also, Jap/Euro SCD soundtrack>S3K soundtrack>US SCD soundtrack.
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Post by Nam on May 4, 2011 14:47:52 GMT
Sonic 1 isn't given enough credit here, in my opinion. How many of you acquire all the Chaos Emeralds by Chemical Plant Act 1/Hydrocity Act 2 and just blast through the rest of the game? I'm not even sure of the level layouts in some of the later levels because I never slowed down to scope around- especially in Sonic 2. This is largely why I seldom bother getting Chaos Emeralds, aside from finding and having enough rings then finding the entrances, then going through them to get the Emeralds to be a real chore. Ninety nine percent of times I won't bother with the Chaos Emerald collection, just because of how annoying I found trying to get through the special stages. Using Super Sonic in Sonic 2 is a huge gamebreaker, and not always in a good way, as he's too fast in a lot of places (Winged Fortress Zone in particular has one jumping section over some gun turrets over a bottomless pit that is an arse as Sonic, but ridiculously hard as Super Sonic)
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Post by MentalAnalysis on May 4, 2011 17:41:23 GMT
Speaking of Metal Sonic, he looked so much cooler than the one in Sonic CD. Going to stop you there; 3K's Mecha is vastly inferior, from an aesthetic point of view, to CD's. The whole "CD is a prequel to 2" makes sense given that CD's Metal design is in very many ways the purest one. It's an absolutely perfect antithesis to Sonic's design, one that strips it down to the barest essentials and turns it. I agree that Metal Sonic looked menacing but with Mecha, he actually looked like a threat. He was bigger, bulkier also had the ability of absorbing chaos energy from the master emerald (And fire bolts of energy and even ring like explosions whilst in super mode). Making the showdown between Mecha and Sonic/Knuckles one of the most memorable boss battles in videogames.
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