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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 29, 2011 13:18:04 GMT
Time to stir the flames of controversy, because it's what I do best. *cracks knuckles* Alright then... Today, we touch on something that will probably get me eaten by half the membership here, but whatever. Scourge vs. Super Sonic! It's not uncommon for Fleetway fans to consider Finitevus a ripoff of Zachary and Scourge a ripoff of Super Sonic. Well. Let's review some ideas. -Super Sonic was created in StC 7, which was released on 8/21/93. Scourge - then as Evil Sonic - appeared in StH 11, published in March '94. Ouch. Slight points to Super, but then again, the idea of a generic evil doppelganger is a classic/cliche (depending on who you ask), so it's not really decisive. -Scourge became, well, Scourge in issue 160-161. That would put him way ahead of Super Sonic's debut, and as I recall, this is where the accusations stem from. Basically, Evil Sonic sapped power from the Master Emerald and it made him much stronger, as well as reversing his eye/fur color. Now, Chaos energy beings being so sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Mogul scarce sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Quest_for_the_Chaos_Emeralds in archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Enerjak the sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Ix Sonic universe, this was logically a case of Archie ripping off Fleetway. === Now then, perhaps a comparison of personality? Super Sonic has had three personalities: At first, he was but a mindless beast, only concerned with destruction. Later on, just prior to his separation from Sonic, he gained true consciousness, and was able to show patience and other emotions besides a unquenchable bloodlust - he would trick people to mess with their emotions, hold off on killing people to make it all the more pleasureable for him, and became more of a villain than a force of nature, even examplified by his teeth becoming sharper and his fur becoming more wild. Super shows no qualms about killing people, but has oddly never gotten around to it. As for the third personality - it's the peaceful one, but that's not relevant to this discussion. --- Scourge has always had the same personality: a Sonic who woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Unlike the crazed Super, he's not some demigod eager to destroy everything. He's a punk. A thug. He's convinced that the world should suffer just as he did. Whereas Super's villainy derives from his makeup of evil energy, Scourge became that way of his own accord. Scourge's father neglected him at a young age, eventually culminating in Scourge murdering him. It's only logical that Scourge fell in with a bad crowd, eventually becoming their leader. More to the core of his personality, he craves one thing and one thing only: respect. He has always been treated like dirt or just plain ignored. He envies that everyone loves and cares about Sonic, but nobody has ever shown that to him. It's made him cold and selfish, reciprocating the only things he's ever known. Scourge made himself King of his world - or rather, he just beat the daylights out of all the local power brokers and said that made him King, in Fiona's words - in an attempt to glorify himself. He had no actual interest in governing; he merely desired respect. However, he has a soft side, though rarely seen: Sonic's father managed to bring Scourge to tears, implying Scourge felt remorse for killing his father. If he can shed tears, even just a few, he can't be all bad, now can he? Character-wise, I'd say he's a bit like the Grinch: there's good buried deep down, but why shell it out when no one else has done the same for him? Oh and they're both green I'm sure that accounts for something. We have yet to see if he can feel genuine love, however. We shall see whenever Fiona is in danger. He has abandoned people who were kind to him in a heartbeat, before... === Now, onto power. This is a clear no contest - Super Sonic is invulnerable, immortal, and capable of doing anything he pleases. The only reason he's stopped is because of how briefly he's allowed to be out, or because some goody two shoes finds a way to drain him. Scourge, on the other hand, is rather down to Earth - he's shown to be stronger than Sonic, but not to the point where he can't be stopped. Where that changes is when he becomes Super Scourge. A tainted purple in coloration, Scourge is convinced he's unstoppable. When this form was finally unveiled, he even seemed to become a bit deranged - he said he planned to use the signature buzzsaw technique to cut Mobius and anti-Mobius alike in half. However, he wasn't deranged out of power-induced insanity like Super, but because he was throwing a tantrum: he was convinced that since the Mobians and anti-Mobians alike rejected him and refused to give him respect, they all deserved to die. His plan was to go from world to world, destroying each one he encountered that didn't bow to him. What's odd is though Scourge has generally not had anywhere near as much power as Super, he's actually been more successful in some fields. He has one heavily-implied murder - his father - and likely killed several others during his takeover of Moebius. He also nearly smashed Sonic's head in with a rock, but was stopped. In both cases, they seem to be heat of the moment killings, rather than a genuine malice. That he felt remorse for his father's death further reinforces this idea. Of course, this is disregarding the Iblis-destroyed future, but we're talking about the characters in general and not some what-if timeline. === What do they have in common? -Both are chaos-infused hedgehogs -Both are common victims of slash pairings with Sonic -Both are a darker side of a hero What do they have different? -Scourge was from another world and another time, whereas Super was born in the depths of Sonic's heart. -Scourge is an actual person, whereas Super seems to mostly just be an extension of Sonic -Super, regardless of his appearance, is always a beast. Scourge is strong, but not invincible by any means, barring his Super state(obviously). -Super is devoid of redeeming qualities, being obsessed with murder and mayhem, and feels darn good about it too; Scourge is more of a selfish punk than anything else. As I like to say, Scourge is a kicked puppy; Super is a puppy kicker. Who then likes to paradrop the puppies from an airplane 10,000 high. Into a shark tank. ON FIRE.
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 29, 2011 13:59:34 GMT
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Dec 29, 2011 19:28:05 GMT
Today, we touch on something that will probably get me eaten by half the membership here, but whatever. Some folks like that sort of thing.
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Post by Beeth on Dec 30, 2011 13:57:11 GMT
This thread = proof that all the shops are shut in Nevada.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 14:27:53 GMT
It is the age old debate, it was bound to be touched on. This thread = proof that all the shops are shut in Nevada. Or I just felt like starting a topic to see alternate points of view. And, you know, term break so may as well find some way to spend it. I'd probably do a Zachary/Finitevus comparison, but I think that one is MUCH MUCH MUCH more valid as a "rip off." Even though albino echidna villains are now the norm, based on the games. The "evil albino" trope at work I suppose. Though I would contrast their motives - Zachary seems to want to kill the echidnas, whereas Finitevus believes the world is inherently corrupt and thus needs to be purged by fire. One is motivated by vengeance, the other by some sick, twisted religious dogma. (Though based on the Syndicate arc of StC, the line has been blurred; exactly what purpose did blowing up Mobius serve to killing the echidna race, anyway? Would it be like the Tiberium bomb in the Sarajevo Temple and attract the echidnas out of hiding or something?) As for the appearance sans albinism, it's clear that Finitevus was inspired by Zachary. Further reiforced by the fact Jon Gray knew his stuff with regards to Fleetway. Drat. Here I committed myself to NOT making a comparison yet I just did. Curse my tendency to ramble, and curse my fanboyism.
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Post by madhair60 on Dec 30, 2011 15:35:14 GMT
Super Sonic /thread lock pls.
Edit: "Age old debate"? Scourge has been around for five minutes. Super Sonic's been around since 1992.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 15:54:35 GMT
Scourge has been around for five minutes. Super Sonic's been around since 1992. Actually in terms of the characters referred to here, Scourge has been around since '94 and SS since '93. The old debate is that Scourge is somehow a ripoff of Fleetway Super Sonic. Though both evil versions of Sonic with some chaos enhancements, the similarities stop there. Well, barring: -What the heck happened to their teeth oh my god -Persistent Foe Yay pairings with Sonic Though I can't really say much more than what's in the OP since I pretty much outlined all my thoughts on the matter. I suppose I just wanted to highlight that playing the ripoff card is generally a kneejerk reaction and not based in reality.
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Dec 30, 2011 16:02:17 GMT
Fleetway's Super would eat Scourge for breakfast, then puke him up again so he could beat him up. No question.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 16:04:38 GMT
Fleetway's Super would eat Scourge for breakfast, then puke him up again so he could beat him up. No question. I should have named the thread differently. I have no question that Fleetway Super would defeat Scourge(At least the normal Scourge) in combat. This thread isn't about them FIGHTING, though. It's about whether Scourge is a ripoff or not... Based on all I can see, there are similarities, but being a chaos super being is NOT Super Sonic's exclusive domain. He's just one in a sea of super beings. XD
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 30, 2011 16:11:10 GMT
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Dec 30, 2011 16:14:22 GMT
Ahh, I was joking. I wouldn't say it's a rip off - but I do recall STC having a "green Sonic" for a couple of issues. It was Metamorphia in disguise, but still I wonder if this served as inspiration for changing Evil Sonic to Scourge in his current form. Edit - Shay, you genius.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 16:23:36 GMT
...enjoying this? I wouldn't say it's a rip off - but I do recall STC having a "green Sonic" for a couple of issues. It was Metamorphia in disguise, but still I wonder if this served as inspiration for changing Evil Sonic to Scourge in his current form. For me, that'd be about as valid as Manic having been a basis... Scourge's color scheme is simple in origin - they wanted to make Scourge as opposite Sonic as possible. So, Scourge has green fur and blue eyes, a reverse of Sonic's blue eyes and green fur. In the same vein, it's why Super Scourge is purple - it's the opposite of Super Sonic's gold(on a red/blue/yellow color wheel anyway). I assume his tapping into the Master Emerald's power messed with the polarity of the transformation or something and thus caused weird side effects. Though that brings up the idea of a Super hedgehog battle - how exactly does one god triumph over another? Sounds like wits would be involved... since how can infinity triumph over infinity? Makes one wonder if Archie contradicts itself...
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Post by madhair60 on Dec 30, 2011 17:36:19 GMT
Actually in terms of the characters referred to here, Scourge has been around since '94 and SS since '93. No he hasn't. "Evil Sonic" wasn't even close to the same characterisation and can't be considered the same character as Scourge without being very disingenous. However, Scourge isn't a ripoff of Super. There's almost nothing in common.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 17:53:01 GMT
No he hasn't. "Evil Sonic" wasn't even close to the same characterisation and can't be considered the same character as Scourge without being very disingenous. But... he is the same character as Scourge. Scourge was just more fleshed out as part of Ian's project to "reinvent" certain characters. Coincidentally, his two main re-inventions were Scourge and Finitevus, both regularly accused of being ripoffs. Is Vector no longer Vector now that we know he's Australian? Knuckles no longer Knuckles now that he has a family? A color scheme shouldn't make you a different character. Indeed. Scourge is a ripoff of King Sonic if anything, and King Sonic is in turn a ripoff of Cinos the Anti-Sonic. (No, quite literally a ripoff - they both have the SAME origin story) And even then, those latter two are pure evil. Scourge is not.
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Dec 30, 2011 19:16:46 GMT
Fleetway's Super would eat Scourge for breakfast, then puke him up again so he could beat him up. No question. I should have named the thread differently. I have no question that Fleetway Super would defeat Scourge(At least the normal Scourge) in combat. I'd say not only normal.........>_> it's basically no match! It's like putting on boxing ring a medium weight with a maximum one!
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 30, 2011 19:28:28 GMT
I'd say not only normal.........>_> it's basically no match! It's like putting on boxing ring a medium weight with a maximum one! From a purely non-biased perspective(that is, examining the characters on their merits; right now the case is simply most individuals here are fans of Super Sonic and automatically rally behind him), they'd be evenly matched. Super Scourge is invincible... as is Super Sonic. The only way for either to be beaten would be to force them to power down. Now, therein lies an advantage for Super Sonic - assuming he's a separate being, he cannot power down. (Barring losing a huge amount of it all at once, which turns him docile) While it's said Chaos Energy allows infinite possibilities, there also seems to be a finite amount of it wielded at any given time. Let's see. Archie had many cases of Super beings going at it. The most comparable is Dark Enerjak going against Super Sonic. Enerjak won - it's not known how. Given that Enerjak is Knuckles, however, it's likely Master energy was used in the process. Knuckles also having been mutated prior to his birth, that possibly gave him an edge. Given that Scourge and Super come from different realms, however, the laws that govern their energies may vary. While Scourge has master energy coursing through his veins, the "Master Emerald" as we know it doesn't exist in Fleetway. Ergo, Scourge's advantage can be cancelled out because the laws aren't comparable. Let's see. Emotionally it'll be interesting. Scourge is quick to anger and prone to tantrums - his desire to kill both Mobiuses spawned entirely from immaturity. Super Sonic seems to be capable of planning and reasoning behind that "insane" persona he dons, which makes him even more dangerous. Super being born from Sonic, he likely has inherited that keen mind for tactics... meaning he could possibly hit Scourge where it hurts emotionally to get an opening. That said, an insane Super could be dangerous too - the simple fact is Chaos always trumps order whenever it rears its head. It is unpredictable. From what I could see, from an unbiased perspective, it really could go either way. Scourge's universe establishes that Master-based beings tend to have an advantage. However, Super Sonic has never fought another Super being. Scourge's laws not necessarily being valid in the Fleetway universe... there's real no clear way to determine a victor sides a popularity contest.
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 30, 2011 20:43:41 GMT
I think we can all agree that this guy'd win.
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Dec 30, 2011 21:25:06 GMT
Nah, Super Sonic would, have you seen him? Attachments:
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 4:31:27 GMT
I understand Super is a favorite around here - indeed, he's one of my favorite two Sonic villains - but I'm trying to address this with a Deadliest Warriors approach. Short of a crossover that will never happen, we'd never find out. And it'd end in a tie. My thoughts: -Super Scourge isn't pure evil. He could be reasoned with. So, in the event these two ever went at it, I can see the heroes supporting him, if reluctantly. Better a dictator than a force of destruction. Since the former at least leaves something to liberate. -It is said that Silver was able to fight Iblis, Super Sonic's much more powerful form. Archie Silver, on the other paw, wasn't able to hold a candle to Super Scourge(Though he was able to defeat Enerjak through use of reason). Assuming the two Silvers are of equal power and skill, that would mean... well... ...I think you know. == Darnit. I didn't want a "who would win" thread, despite the title, yet here we are, having degenerated into one.
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Pinchetel
Big Time Boomer
...And together in failure.
Posts: 212
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Post by Pinchetel on Dec 31, 2011 9:41:29 GMT
Super Sonic easily. Why? Because you're all missing one key point.
Super Scourge isn't powered by the Master Emerald, he's powered by the Moebius version of Chaos Emeralds, Anarchy Beryl. The Anarchy Beryls are just as much subject to the anti clause as the residents themselves, so while the Chaos Emeralds give you an energy boost, the Anarchy Beryls drain energy, leaving you crippled once their power wears off. Thus, as long as Super Sonic could keep the battle going on for long enough (admittedly, an AB transformation lasts longer than the standard CE transformation, but Fleetway Super Sonic isn't subject to the standard CE rules), Scourge would end up powering down and being helpless.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 10:04:03 GMT
Super Scourge isn't powered by the Master Emerald, he's powered by the Moebius version of Chaos Emeralds, Anarchy Beryl. The Anarchy Beryls are just as much subject to the anti clause as the residents themselves, so while the Chaos Emeralds give you an energy boost, the Anarchy Beryls drain energy, leaving you crippled once their power wears off. Thus, as long as Super Sonic could keep the battle going on for long enough (admittedly, an AB transformation lasts longer than the standard CE transformation, but Fleetway Super Sonic isn't subject to the standard CE rules), Scourge would end up powering down and being helpless. While this is a sound theory, there's other considerations. Zonic stated that Scourge is allowed to run free because he's a wild card due to his mutation. He was mutated by Master energy, so the rules can be broken. As for draining and giving energy - yes, that's the result of powering down. But until you're powered down, you are even stronger than a Chaos Super being. It's a bit of a trade off, but not a crippling one unless you're a fool - as Scourge is - and would either power down prematurely or waste time. Why are we assuming power runs dry, as well? It seems to be possible, through enough practice and skill, to permanently maintain a Super form. Iblis did it, Enerjak did it... (Let's not get into how giddy seeing Enerjak and Iblis duke it out would make me, though ) In a similar vein, while not quite demigod status, Shadow maintains consistent Chaos abilities even without an emerald. Of course, that changes the game right there: what Super are we talking about? Iblis, who is permanently in that state? Super Sonic who reverts back to Blue when it wears off? Super Sonic who is his own being? Against Iblis, Scourge is pretty much doomed unless he maintains a constant supply of energy and that isn't even addressing how one Super being can trump another. (Or not - Silver can fight Iblis; Scourge trashed Silver) Against the fused Super Sonic, Scourge enjoys a clear advantage - he will stay in Super form longer than his counterpart, assuming finite energy. Separate Super Sonic, it's less clear cut - While Super seems unstoppable at first, his power CAN drain to the point death is right around the corner. Lacking a flesh and blood body, he has nowhere to contain the energy, and he is essentially bleeding to death with each passing second. Despite the theoretically-infinite power, it can wax and wane(turning himself into a bomb, for instance, disrupted his power immensely, then he could briefly regain it, and then near StC's end he was so drained of energy he risked dying).
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 31, 2011 14:33:15 GMT
The reason I have a problem with this is that it seems that every time Archie is mentioned it has to be about a conflict between it and STC. Why can't we just co-exist, love, and tolerate one another?
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Post by Eleonora B.M on Dec 31, 2011 15:10:32 GMT
The reason I have a problem with this is that it seems that every time Archie is mentioned it has to be about a conflict between it and STC. Why can't we just co-exist, love, and tolerate one another? BECAUSE I'M THE DETECTIVE! AND I WON'T LET YOU CLOSE IT ALL IN A CATBOX! I'd say not only normal.........>_> it's basically no match! It's like putting on boxing ring a medium weight with a maximum one! From a purely non-biased perspective(that is, examining the characters on their merits; right now the case is simply most individuals here are fans of Super Sonic and automatically rally behind him), they'd be evenly matched. Super Scourge is invincible... as is Super Sonic. The only way for either to be beaten would be to force them to power down. ... there's real no clear way to determine a victor sides a popularity contest. alow me to dissent. There actually would be a way.... starting out we have a Sonic vs Scourge in Archi that ends since Scourge backfires. In Fleetway there is no equal fight unless you consider that of "point of no return" of n184. But that was basically Sonic taking time. So mathematically speaking it would go like this(?): Scourge: Sonic A.= x( super): Sonic F. For now let's consider the two different Sonics on the same level. So let's see the difference between the impact created by Scourge on one plate and Super on the other. Scourge "conquered his world", killed his father, evaded by prison (with help) almost got sonic killed (when he was super) on the other plate we have Super who simply.....KILLS AND DESTORIES A HOLE PLANET FOR GENERATIONS! Scares Sonic himself and actually submits Sonic since he can't take back control on Super. So what's Scourge's big point? that he almost defeated Sonic when he was super? Sonic couldn't defeat him because he wasn't super, but was basically able to strike back for a wile. With Super nobody can even get close, unless he decides so. So in basically in Archi Super Sonic would have surely taken down Super scourge. But doesn't Super Sonic of Archi anyway match the Super form of Fleetway? So there is no way for Sonic to defeat Super in any way since THAT is his super form.... So basically if you sum it all up it goes like this: Sonic can defeat Scourge at it's best if he's Super. Other way around normal Sonic can't defeat Super. So that must logically mean that Super > Scourge he..........just for the comic's existance, this level of reasoning is possible for Eleonora M. What do you think everyone? *grin* *giggle* yes, I know I just lost myself in an absurd sophism.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 15:27:46 GMT
The reason I have a problem with this is that it seems that every time Archie is mentioned it has to be about a conflict between it and STC. Why can't we just co-exist, love, and tolerate one another? They coexist just fine in my heart; indeed this thread originally wasn't a combat thread at all. Though, these two beings' agendas obviously conflict. Eviler than Thou at work - villains don't always get along and alliances tend to be temporary. Scourge wants to extract respect from people, and he can't do that if they're all dead. To war, brothers, to war! >:C Scourge: Sonic A.= x( super): Sonic F. For now let's consider the two different Sonics on the same level. So let's see the difference between the impact created by Scourge on one plate and Super on the other. Scourge "conquered his world", killed his father, evaded by prison (with help) almost got sonic killed (when he was super) on the other plate we have Super who simply.....KILLS AND DESTORIES A HOLE PLANET FOR GENERATIONS! Scares Sonic himself and actually submits Sonic since he can't take back control on Super. Well, Super being a split personality, of course he can hijack Sonic's body. That's not a fair comparison. As for Scourge's power: umm, potential is just as important as success. That's why you stop a villain in the first place - because success would be horrible. Scourge was fully capable of buzzsawing both planets in half with no effort at all. He was merely prevented from doing so because Sonic used quick thinking to appeal to Scourge's ego. Iblis, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about destruction so much as making lives miserable - after all, he would have destroyed the planet by now rather than allow pockets of survivors to live if destruction was truly his goal. ((Odd, isn't it? When Super turned evil for the first time under Ebony's care, he couldn't stand the idea of slow destruction...)) As I said, Archie's physics aren't entirely known. How one god of infinite power can defeat another I do not know. Traditionally, when demigods have gone at it, they somehow sucked the power out of their foe. "Two super beings wailing on eachother. Like that ever accomplished anything!" - Silver, SU #28 Though, it seems an Anarchy-Beryl form is stronger than a Chaos Emerald form; Scourge also is stronger than Sonic in his normal state. Assuming the Sonic and Super Sonics of both continuities are of equal power, that would mean Super Scourge could defeat Fleetway Super. ...Sonic didn't really defeat Scourge. He outwitted him. A large difference - truly defeating means you beat the living daylights out of them. Sonic didn't stand a chance against Super Scourge; it was why he had to use his brain. Same reason Silver had to use his brain to defeat Enerjak, and the same reason he had to use his brain to try and undermine Iblis. Regardless, I don't think it'd be a quick battle. It'd be like the Cold War turning hot - no matter who wins, everyone else loses.
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Dec 31, 2011 16:55:23 GMT
Super didn't really defeat Scourge. He outwitted him. A large difference - truly defeating means you beat the living daylights out of them. Since when? There are many manners of defeat other than to just 'beat the living daylights out of them'. That kind of logic would make for terrible writing were that the basis of every defeat in anything.
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