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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 17:11:30 GMT
Since when? There are many manners of defeat other than to just 'beat the living daylights out of them'. That kind of logic would make for terrible writing were that the basis of every defeat in anything. Well Eleanora - from what I can see - is comparing outwitting a super being to being more powerful than them. Definitely not the same thing. Perhaps I should have rephrased, but whatever. Sonic didn't really triumph over Scourge, so much as trick him into weakening himself. Scourge having learned from that, I don't think there'd be any such weaknesses exposed in an Iblis vs. Super Scourge battle. It would just be two super beings beating the crap out of eachother and likely destroying entire realities in the process. |
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 31, 2011 18:08:08 GMT
The fact that you've jumped to my "conflict" meaning a fisticuffs, and that "defeating" requires violence tells me what I need to know, and consequently why I think this is tripe. I prefer more thought behind my stories.  |
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 18:19:09 GMT
The fact that you've jumped to my "conflict" meaning a fisticuffs tells me what I need to know, and consequently why I think this is tripe. Well, while conflict can certainly be non-violent, it does invoke connotations of violence.  That also seems to be what a lot of crossovers are - the heroes brawl and end up having a tie. Because having either side win/lose will anger people. ...though, I think with regards to the two characters discussed here, assuming violence isn't that extreme. xD A bully and a sociopath walk into a room... It would be nice if continuities could coexist rather than collide, though. But this is the Sonic fandom. Conflict is the basis of it at this point.  Ironic since Sonic's color was chosen to represent peace. |
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Slender Man
Big Time Boomer
And then I just chundered, everywhere.
Posts: 347
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Post by Slender Man on Dec 31, 2011 20:20:32 GMT
Super didn't really triumph over Scourge, so much as trick him into weakening himself. I still see that as a defeat. Brains over brawn an' all that. The concept that defeat can only be achieved through violence is poppycock. And the word 'conflict' - in my eyes - doesn't automatically conotate with violence. The word conflict to me means clashing ideals, morals and thoughts all depending on the situation, unless specifically stated otherwise that violence is involved. Attachments:
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Dec 31, 2011 20:27:50 GMT
I still see that as a defeat. Brains over brawn an' all that. The concept that defeat can only be achieved through violence is poppycock. Well between these two, violence would most likely be the prerequisite to defeat or victory. But yeah, anyway, semantics. She was - from what I could tell - comparing strategy with raw power. Which doesn't add up; just because Sonic was able to outsmart Scourge doesn't make the latter weak. Furthermore, assuming Scourge learns from his mistakes, it is no longer relevant in any future battle. Different minds, then. When I hear "conflict," I automatically think of guns firing, bombs falling, ancient cities blazing, little children crying. |
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Post by patches on Jan 2, 2012 23:21:53 GMT
Am I alone in thinking this sounds like some poor character's particularly apoplectic aunt? Maybe from a Lew Stringer story?  I have never read a scrap of Archie, so basically have no idea what Tanicius is talking about... but have decided Super Sonic is the original and best. No-one shall convince me otherwise...  Edit: and I'm afraid T-Fox, you're not really correct about the idea of 'conflict'- the other posts are more accurate. If you don't quite get what we mean, think of a tennis game- power is a huge advantage, but often it's not raw strength that allows a participant to win: it's more often their ability to force the hand of their opponent and capitalise on their mistakes. Think of golf too; Tiger Woods won everything going for a while, but even before the scandal around him broke other golfers were catching up, not because they were able to hit the ball further, but they learnt to ply the game better. And if that doesn't convince you, think of the innumerable Hollywood blockbusters that tell of victory over impossible odds- ingenuity over an opponent can be far more powerful. I don't mean to lecture, so please don't take this the wrong way! |
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 3, 2012 1:29:31 GMT
Am I alone in thinking this sounds like some poor character's particularly apoplectic aunt? Maybe from a Lew Stringer story? When my friend - who's a huge Sega fanatic and gets very emotional at the slightest critique mentioned AB to me once, I thought it was some punk hipster or something. Anarchy Beryls are just the name the Anti-Mobians/Moebians have given to their Chaos Emeralds. Whereas the Emeralds are gems, Beryl seems to already be energy/fluid, given that Scourge stocked his throne with it in case of an emergency. It grants you miles more power than a Chaos transformation(helped more by Scourge's natural Chaos mutation), but has a few catches - if you power down, for one, it leaves you completely exhausted. A concept Sonic used to defeat the emotional, insane demigod. (A bit like the King Sonic arc, actually, but actually making sense) Oh this isn't really meant to be a competition. I was moreso hoping to disprove the old "Scourge is a ripoff of FSS!" argument. Being a major league nerd with extensive knowledge of all the continuities(except AoStH and the novels I must admit; working on that), I tried to avoid a "who would win" argument. Naturally it devolved into one, being more of a popularity contest than an effective debate. Dark Enerjak, Iblis and Super Scourge walk into a bar. Within seconds, the bar no longer exists as egos the size of Jupiter(and more) collide. I suppose my short temper and the saturation of US popular culture with blood and violence has given me a skewed idea of what "conflict is." Though I'd agree. It's why I've like Enerjak, Scourge, and Super Sonic as villains - all are too strong to overcome through the normal "Grunt. Me hit it" tactics of Sonic and his crew. (Of course the first and third are miles more intimidating due to actually SUCCEEDING in crushing their heroes) == I'll just post more thoughts on any theoretical battle we'd never see: -Super Scourge is more powerful than the Archie Super Sonic. -On the other hand, FSS is more deranged and chaos always triumphs over order. (A fact Eggman came to when trying to explain how some fat blue punk managed to defeat him) -While Scourge is stronger than his Sonic due to absorbing energy from the emeralds, Sonic Prime has absorbed so much energy over the course of his life to make himself unpredictable. What Fleetway Sonic and Scourge have absorbed over the course of their lives would likely be the tiebreaker: assuming Chaos Energy is an amplifier, he who has consumed the most will have the most power. -Scourge was able to crush his Silver, whereas FSS failed. It could be assumed FSS arrogantly allowed Silver to live, taking his sweet time, unaware of exactly what their plan was. Overall, it's hard to reach a non-biased decision, due to lack of measurements of power. Alas, despite Sonic being so oft compared to DBZ, they weren't very good at measuring power! |
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Post by sidewinder on Mar 31, 2012 17:40:21 GMT
Well if we are measuring in power Then the evidence is clearly in the comic books. Super scourge could only beat up every one while in super form where as I n STC continuity he's had issues where he could go to the center of mobiuse and blow it up though through a dream but something he could do, or has been shown that ha can do if he wanted to get things over with quickly.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Apr 3, 2012 5:49:14 GMT
Super Scourge was prepping to spindash both Mobius and Moebius in half prior to Sonic tricking him to power down. It sounds to me like both are rather mentally unstable demigods when at full power, though whereas Super's stems from malice and a love of anarchy, Scourge's stems from his serious inadequacy issues.
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Post by sidewinder on Apr 3, 2012 7:46:26 GMT
Super Scourge was prepping to spindash both Mobius and Moebius in half prior to Sonic tricking him to power down. It sounds to me like both are rather mentally unstable demigods when at full power, though whereas Super's stems from malice and a love of anarchy, Scourge's stems from his serious inadequacy issues. yeah but scourge has this stupid soap opera crappy my daddy didn't love me so I turned evil reasoning behind him. Least thats what I remember reading could be wrong as I say reading I glanced. I couldn't give a dam about early archie as it sucked imo. Supes is just outright mental with no other reason then chaos energy which makes Supes even better he's pure unadulterated chaos he doesn't need a reason to be so bad ass. |
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Apr 3, 2012 17:37:32 GMT
yeah but scourge has this stupid soap opera crappy my daddy didn't love me so I turned evil reasoning behind him. Least thats what I remember reading could be wrong as I say reading I glanced. Scourge is a case of do unto others as others do unto him. He was never shown love or kindness, ergo he doesn't show it to anyone else(and based on his betrayal of Al and Cal, who were being kind to him, it's going to take more than a few bits of kindness to change that). He is Sonic's exact opposite in that regard - Sonic does unto others as he wants done unto him, and shows mercy even to his most hated enemies. Ultimately that is his main motivation for such things as declaring himself King(as he does share Sonic's lack of interest in power) - all he wants is respect. What he doesn't understand is that respect is earned from helping others, not given simply because you lord over them. Though it sounds like all of anti-Mobius suffers from the same issue. There was never any love or kindness shown by any of its members, which is why the society fell apart. Killing family members is the norm for goodness sake. It sounds like a moral - compassion is the reason Mobius is a paradise(barring the big fat guy coming along every so often) whereas a lack thereof is why anti-Mobius is a complete wreck. No one wants to help anyone else or build a better society. (I guess this is why Jules said that if Mobius is full of heroes, ant-Mobius is full of cowards) Well, his personality does seem to differ based on who is writing him or what fits the story that is being told. He's either crazy and destructive or evil and destructive. Doesn't really change the fact he's a bit scary regardless. (Barring that timespan where he was cuddly) |
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Post by sidewinder on Apr 3, 2012 18:52:33 GMT
yeah but scourge has this stupid soap opera crappy my daddy didn't love me so I turned evil reasoning behind him. Least thats what I remember reading could be wrong as I say reading I glanced. Scourge is a case of do unto others as others do unto him. He was never shown love or kindness, ergo he doesn't show it to anyone else(and based on his betrayal of Al and Cal, who were being kind to him, it's going to take more than a few bits of kindness to change that). He is Sonic's exact opposite in that regard - Sonic does unto others as he wants done unto him, and shows mercy even to his most hated enemies. Ultimately that is his main motivation for such things as declaring himself King(as he does share Sonic's lack of interest in power) - all he wants is respect. What he doesn't understand is that respect is earned from helping others, not given simply because you lord over them. Though it sounds like all of anti-Mobius suffers from the same issue. There was never any love or kindness shown by any of its members, which is why the society fell apart. Killing family members is the norm for goodness sake. It sounds like a moral - compassion is the reason Mobius is a paradise(barring the big fat guy coming along every so often) whereas a lack thereof is why anti-Mobius is a complete wreck. No one wants to help anyone else or build a better society. (I guess this is why Jules said that if Mobius is full of heroes, ant-Mobius is full of cowards) Well, his personality does seem to differ based on who is writing him or what fits the story that is being told. He's either crazy and destructive or evil and destructive. Doesn't really change the fact he's a bit scary regardless. (Barring that timespan where he was cuddly) thats a real nice in depth explanation and all how ever I personally feel once again Archie goes in to in-depth and sucked all the fun out of it where as Suoes came about by Nigle playing as super on sonic 2 and feeling he was too out of control and things just worked from there |
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That also seems to be what a lot of crossovers are - the heroes brawl and end up having a tie. Because having either side win/lose will anger people.
Ironic since Sonic's color was chosen to represent peace.
