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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 4, 2012 13:41:53 GMT
Spun off from the Sonic 4 thread to avoid cluttering it. Love him? Hate him? Indifferent? Share your thoughts and your reasonings here if you feel so inclined. The last bit of the discussion I was having: Shadow's backstory is not complicated (his friend died so he decided to destroy the world. Also he was made by aliens), Not that complexity or lack thereof make something good or bad, of course. Fairly straightforward backstories can be appealing. Umm... that would seem like devotion to me. Like what you'd have towards your parents or lover. They request you to do something, and out of your love for them, you do. It's frustrating... but you still do it. Also, Shadow gullible? That's laughable. He's possibly one of the most manipulative of the Sonic villains: when Amy tried to convince Shadow to help, he stated, "It's all going according to plan." He knew all along the ARK would crash into Earth and kill everything on it, and manipulated Eggman accordingly. Eggman is the gullible one. Of course, he promptly discovered his intentions didn't match Maria's desire(one can even argue he subconsciously altered his memory - after all, seeing his best friend killed could sometimes give you a "they all deserve to die" mentality), and promptly changed them. Well that's out of canon. But I like my in-canon reason better. The out of canon reason Sonic never cries is because Sega doesn't want him to be wimpy. The in-canon reason is he's too strong or some nonsense. Also you're forgetting Gerald. Maria was his sister/mother figure, and Gerald his father figure. They were all he knew - he was all alone, and anyone who wanted anything to do with him saw him as a weapon - GUN, Eggman, Black Doom, all of them. (once again, I could see him and the good Fleetway Super getting along very well) Proportionally, he lost 100% of all those he cared about, and the closest thing he had to a family. His bitterness and more cold attitude are easily explained by a life that has been a constant story of loss, betrayal, and exploitation. He has grown tired of weeping over the past and being pushed around, hence his recent change in attitude. Actually, him causing the annihilation of Central City is supposed to be canon. So, yeah, he murdered a few million people, which should give him a good reason to be emotionally damaged, only it's never brought up. ...wait what. I thought only the events of the pure good story were accurate? They never did elaborate which of the storylines was canon, did they?
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 4, 2012 13:52:18 GMT
This will seem a bit out of context, but this is my response to ShayMay's response to the above. (He edited the original so it's gone now) It's well-established that Chaos energy is more-or-less evil energy in STC. He ran out of Chaos ("evil") energy and thus stopped being evil. No, if he ran out of energy, he would have died, as established in the final story. (Never mind the evil energy didn't leave - he could still tap it if he so desired; it was just repressed by the good. He's a bit comparable to Majin Buu in this regard) Therefore, it would seem some good energy exists, and that is what he ran off of. However, exposure to chaos energy turned him evil as most is corrupted. Well that's a bit unreasonable, yes. But then again, we all have parents. Siblings. Cousins. Children. Large pools of friends. Well, most people do anyway. We can't possibly fathom what it's like to go through life knowing only two people, having them murdered(one right in front of your eyes), and after that, everyone wanting to use you as a part of their schemes. Alright. Points there. This is incorrect. He didn't stop because she said that. Supervillains don't change just because of some sappy phrase. Her words ended up bringing his full memory back - he remembered all of Maria's message rather than pieces of it. Maria's dying words were for him to create a better future for all of the people on Earth; helping the people of Earth was his reason for being created. He realised how horribly wrong he was and set about to change it. In particular, the words, "Shadow I beg of you, please" triggered the true flashback, as that was what Maria herself had started off with. Is the Grinch's sudden change in character poor as well? He changed because he realised how wrong he was - he thought Christmas was all about gifts. Upon seeing that the gifts were just the cherry on top, however, he found himself touched and became good in moments.
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Post by Nam on Jan 4, 2012 18:03:19 GMT
From t'other thread: Actually, him causing the annihilation of Central City is supposed to be canon. So, yeah, he murdered a few million people, which should give him a good reason to be emotionally damaged, only it's never brought up. ...wait what. I thought only the events of the pure good story were accurate? They never did elaborate which of the storylines was canon, did they? As far as I know, canon in Sonic is pretty much "these key events generally happened, but the specifics can be ignored, and anything that happens only matters if we decide it matters, otherwise assume negative continuity." As far as the game is concerned, I don't think there is a confirmed canon "this happened this way", as it removes the point of a multi-ended game. Last story happens, and there is obviously a four sided fight between Gun, Black Arms, Eggman, and Sonic & Friends. Also Shadow spends the time with amnesia and trying to figure out who he really is. All the stuff in the middle, such as blowing up cities, is a very big "ehh" in terms of canon, though all the other endings (esp. Shadow kills Eggman, for obvious reasons), aren't canon either.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 4, 2012 18:10:25 GMT
As far as I know, canon in Sonic is pretty much "these key events generally happened, but the specifics can be ignored, and anything that happens only matters if we decide it matters, otherwise assume negative continuity." This is true - the most connected plots I can think of were SA-Heroes, and Sonic 3-Sonic n Knuckles. The latter one is cheating, as those were originally one game. Ah yes, that would be up to the person then, to decide how it reaches that point. General consensus is Shadow went through the pure good storyline, though most likely he started off evil and worked his way to good(he seemed quite eager to work with Black Doom in the first cutscene, so it could be assumed he did for some time). Then again, he collects the emeralds either way, so whichever ending would lead into the Final Story most logically(likely the ones where you invade the Black Comet) would be where to go from. But overall, it's all a matter of opinion. So he could very well have been happy go lucky, or have very well committed genocide. I do want to see the citation for Central City's destruction, of course. I mean... it would seem rather unrealistic for the United Federation to accept Shadow as one of their agents after he murdered millions of their own people. (Granted they might be in the dark about that... or just not care)
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Post by rj on Jan 9, 2012 17:04:19 GMT
he's a black mutant hedgehog with rocket skates who travels through time and has amnesia
original character do not steal
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 9, 2012 17:32:08 GMT
he's a black mutant hedgehog with rocket skates who travels through time and has amnesia original character do not steal He's a blue mutant hedgehog with 770 mph-resistant shoes who is capable of turning into an invincible demon whenever faced with death and has the ability to create force fields around himself and break ropes and... Sorry, but in the span of the Sonicverse, what Shadow has isn't all that special. All he really has is chaos energy, and who DOESN'T have that? If anything, Sonic's the overpowered one, as Sonic runs that speed naturally; Shadow requires assistance. Sonic also completely dominates him in terms of chaos capability. Of course if we go outside Fleetway that can change around a little. But it doesn't change the fact Sonic is still capable of matching him despite how uber all of Shadow's capabilities supposedly are.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 9, 2012 17:40:04 GMT
He's a blue mutant hedgehog with 770 mph-resistant shoes who is capable of turning into an invincible demon whenever faced with death and has the ability to create force fields around himself and break ropes and... overpowered as [censored]
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 9, 2012 17:43:34 GMT
overpowered as [censored] Allow me to rephrase. He's able to vibrate his molecules in such a manner it causes ropes to break. The amount of mastery over one's body like that, I'd think, pales in comparison to "oh I can shoot lightning from my hands." Who can't shoot energy weapons in the Sonicverse anyway?
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Post by madhair60 on Jan 9, 2012 18:39:26 GMT
cream
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Post by rj on Jan 9, 2012 21:25:51 GMT
robotnik
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 9, 2012 21:38:02 GMT
Barring the Robotnik Reigns Supreme arc, Robotnik/Eggman in general can use energy weapons without the need for chaos energy. He is that awesome. He doesn't need any artifacts unlike those weakling furries! My copout is the chao seem to have some strange connection to chaos energy and she uses a Chao as a weapon so there. == Regardless, chaos powers, or energy of any sort isn't really special. Each character just has their own unique flavor.
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Post by madhair60 on Jan 9, 2012 21:54:55 GMT
no, no, we're going to keep doing this.
cream's mum
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Post by rj on Jan 9, 2012 21:57:14 GMT
flickies
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 9, 2012 22:09:01 GMT
Ah, well on Vanilla you've got me.
Flickies - as I recall they have special qualities that Robotnik desires to exploit.
Everyone has some sort of super awesome capability really; Sonic only has his speed and occasionally chaos powers. As I recall, that's half his appeal: he's the little guy of the bunch yet still somehow comes out as the top guy.
Singling Shadow out as "powerful" is just unfair and disregards the fact there are plenty of other extremely powerful characters across the canon. Never mind, Sonic actually can match Shadow. He can't match Super Sonic, Enerjak, or Scourge. Even Robotnik gets a one up on him at times.
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Post by Mark on Jan 11, 2012 17:14:29 GMT
Ray the Flying Squirrel.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 11, 2012 17:20:45 GMT
Me.
Edit: oh no wait
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 11, 2012 17:27:02 GMT
Doesn't change the fact that Shadow is far from being all powerful, despite it being a common critique of him.
In game canon, Sonic regularly matches Shadow. On the other hand he struggles against Eggman, Silver, or whoever the demon of the week is.
In comic canon(especially Archie) Shadow is even less all powerful. Barring StCO(which is cheating as Sonic just had to play his trump card to defeat Shadow), Shadow is still matched.
Shadow is meant to be a rival. A Sonic who let his purity of heart be compromised and his love of justice be perverted to revenge and spite. (Thank you Dante Aleghieri for describing Wrath as that because that's just epic) As such, despite seemingly having so much over Sonic, he still ends up as an equal at the end of the day. Heck, Sonic was even capable of strengthening himself to match Shadow's awesome power - his use of Chaos Control comes to mind.
Never mind Shadow cheats as well, requiring his rocket shoes and chaos powers to be out of Sonic's league. The only advantage he has without chaos energy is the fact he seems to be as hard as a rock. (Based on his strength in Shadow 05 and/or "Oww what are you made of, brick?!" in Archie)
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Post by Charles on Jan 11, 2012 20:22:36 GMT
In game canon, Sonic regularly matches Shadow. On the other hand he struggles against Eggman, Silver, or whoever the demon of the week is. "Ultimate Lifeform" my ass, Gerald was just throwing buzzwords around to get extra funding off the gullible.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 11, 2012 20:34:41 GMT
"Ultimate Lifeform" my ass, Gerald was just throwing buzzwords around to get extra funding off the gullible. There's a trope for this, but I forget the name of it. It's that a character can be super awesome in cutscenes and story in terms of power, but be a complete wimp in actual gameplay. Shadow is ageless, immune to all disease, and built like a tank(and just as deadly) in game canon. Yet, despite this virtual immunity to death(as he's immune to all three causes), in game you can throttle him, or he can die simply by falling. (Seems he forgot the rocket skates...) Shadow was meant to be a cure for Maria's NIDS based on all that can be gathered across canon. I assume he needed funding, though, so as is common, he had to develop weapons for the military. Seems Shadow was weaponised as part of this. ...of course the army then decided he was too dangerous and had to be destroyed. What the heck, man!
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jan 12, 2012 10:22:37 GMT
If it's tropes you refer to, a troper would put him in a longcoat and fedora and give him a katana, and all his enemies would be jerk jocks.
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Post by Arch on Jan 12, 2012 10:25:54 GMT
"Ultimate Lifeform" my ass, Gerald was just throwing buzzwords around to get extra funding off the gullible. There's a trope for this, but I forget the name of it. It's that a character can be super awesome in cutscenes and story in terms of power, but be a complete wimp in actual gameplay. Shadow is ageless, immune to all disease, and built like a tank(and just as deadly) in game canon. Yet, despite this virtual immunity to death(as he's immune to all three causes), in game you can throttle him, or he can die simply by falling. (Seems he forgot the rocket skates...) Gameplay and Story Segregationaw hell no
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Post by Charles on Jan 12, 2012 22:57:28 GMT
a troper would put him in a longcoat and fedora and give him a katana, and all his enemies would be jerk jocks. But he already has Sonic for an enemy.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 12, 2012 23:10:51 GMT
But he already has Sonic for an enemy. Sonic has the first half of that down then. Fleetway Sonic especially. I suppose Knuckles could be the jock.
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Post by reallywf on Jan 31, 2012 11:43:30 GMT
Allow me to rephrase. He's able to vibrate his molecules in such a manner it causes ropes to break. What issue was this.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Jan 31, 2012 15:30:03 GMT
I don't know the number by heart, but I believe it's the one where he's tied up by the Marxio brothers where he explains the pseudoscience behind it. Ropes in general do not hold Sonic well in STC. (Just one of his unique powers)
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