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Post by Devo DrakeFox on May 13, 2013 0:02:25 GMT
The Cybermen seem to have become a little more... Borg-like in the way that they adapt to different weapons and tactics. I approve, but they still aren't that scary (though the new voice is a step in the right direction).
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Post by WinterFlames on May 13, 2013 0:20:36 GMT
Just FYI, folks. The finale got an accidental release very early, and spoilers are everywhere. Avoid the DW wiki, and expect to see it all over social networks (by which I generally mean Tumblr) about 30 seconds ago.
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Post by Knuckles on May 14, 2013 4:10:25 GMT
Overall, entertaining. But Gaiman is usually incredible at making me forget about nitpicking and just enjoy the storytelling, so what happened? This was built on some really shaky grounds. 1) Why would the Doctor EVER leave the kids to nap in the middle of a room where he KNEW Cyber-technology was skulking around? 2) The episode was apparently trying to bring the fear back to the Cybermen. They had: a fairground. Cybermen taking off their heads and spinning them 180º. A CAMP CYBERLEADER. 3) Chess game was entirely pointless and such a dull cliché. 4) Chess game was resolved when the Doctor decides to STOP PLAYING CHESS. I wouldn't have minded but it was a huge time investment that was literally dropped. Gaiman must have went "oh, I can't be bothered thinking of a clever way to end this game". 5) This is the big one. Dragon Ball Z school of plot resolution. "By the way, millions of Cybermen. Blow up the planet." That's not... tense or fulfilling, that's just lazy! It's the first chapter in "How to Raise the Stakes": blow up the planet. 6) Why were the kids there, seriously? Was this one of those production members' families things? Also, Clara. Urgh... right, there's a preview up that basically confirms that Clara is supposed to be bland. She's supposed to be the Doctor's dream girl or whatever. But for goodness' sake, it's the character that drives the plot! It doesn't matter if you KNOW she's dull, she's still dull! If a chef handed you a plate of fresh faeces, it doesn't matter that he KNOWS it's [censored], you still wouldn't eat it! It's symptomatic of the depressing trend in serialised media to work towards the next marketable finale/anniversary rather than prioritise the story. The fact that a main character being dull is a PLOT POINT is arse backwards to an alarming degree. Agree with you about the points in the spoiler tag 100%, the episode wasn't great for all the reasons you listed and I think that the kids may have been forced on Gaiman by the production staff at Doctor Who, limiting what he could do with the episode. If so, that is extremely disappointing. However, I disagree with you about Clara. She's proven to be smart and resourceful, much smarter than Amy and Rose, and she's the only companion I've truly liked since Martha. She's useful and doesn't need the obvious explained to her. As for the chemistry, towards the end of Amy and Rory's run they overemphasised the love for the two characters far too much to avoid the love triangle they had written for themselves, which in itself is a repetition of Rose, the Ninth Doctor and Mickey. The only problem I have with Clara is the falling in love thing the preview shows. Amy, Rose, River and Martha all had feelings for the Doctor. In 50 years of the show being on it's only been since 2005 The Doctor has consistently had companions he can't be purely platonic with and to be honest it's getting very silly every season a new companion and The Doctor go through the same steps. It also would be disappointing as I've felt he's been cold towards Clara on more than one occasion and I liked that as it made sense. He saw her as a mystery, no more than that, and in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS we saw he didn't even trust she wasn't hiding her secret from him. He was cold and unattached after everything that happened with Amy (again, something we saw with Tennant after leaving Donna), and so it made so much sense he wasn't treating Clara the same. To ignore all that and make another lovey dovey companion would just be horrible and show the show just does not progress from season to season.
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Post by ShayMay on May 18, 2013 18:48:19 GMT
No sense of tension or closure, except for that bit where the Great Intelligence was demanding the Doctor's name. Lots of sitting around talking, and there was very little of it that made sense. Definitely the most I've ever been disappointed by Doctor Who.
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Post by Super Sonic on May 18, 2013 18:57:17 GMT
But... but... John Hurt!!
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Post by Alex on May 18, 2013 19:01:37 GMT
Was basically a 45 minute prologue for the anniversary - which I hope will be better. There were some bits I liked, and I both really liked the explanation given for Clara's mystery and the way they actually integrated it into the classic clips. It also seemed to be a definitive end to River Song, which was a nice way for her to go out, too.
But, really, the episode was made up of really good ideas that didn't really work as an episode of television. It feels as though Moffat is running out of steam - or just really didn't know how else to build into what may be a great anniversary episode.
I completely bought Richard E Grant as the Doctor's greatest nemesis, though. I'd love for him to come back for more.
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Post by Ringo (2015 Edition) on May 18, 2013 19:28:46 GMT
This was the most let down episode of the entire series. It didn't even feel like the finale. It was mostly talking, anti-climatic build ups to reveal the Doctor's real name, hardly no action what so ever. However, I liked the Whisper Men, the planet Trenzalore, and the enlarged future TARDIS as the grave. But Richard E. Grant stole the show in many ways. He was awesome, creepy and nemesis #1 for me. Come on Moffat, what are you playing at!??! DW just lately is drivel!!
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on May 18, 2013 19:53:58 GMT
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you guys. This is perhaps the best series finale that Doctor Who has had since it came back. The episode isn't about the revelation of the Doctor's name, but rather what it means i.e the promise stuff that we get. I don't think saying there was no action is valid argument, the action is Doctor Who is always secondary to the more cerebral aspects of it, the Doctor isn't an action hero. Amazing Cliffhanger, which is a key part of any good series finale. If it feel like a finale, it's because while it's the series finale, but it's only the first half of the larger story that is at work about "the Name of the Doctor". Frankly, it seems like you're upset that Moffet, pulled a fast one on you and didn't answer every question....yet. It's really a part one guys, part two will come our way in November.
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Post by WinterFlames on May 18, 2013 20:18:17 GMT
That really blindsided me. Absolutely stunning episode, still running over it in my head, but biggest complaints was basically... Strax. Why did Strax even need to be in the episode? Beyond that it was big, bold, and exciting throughout, but above all else, it actually held my interest which, for me at least, was an extreme shift from the general apathy and distaste I've had regarding the rest of this season.
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Post by ShayMay on May 18, 2013 20:19:26 GMT
lordgazza: It was always obvious that the Doctor's name was never going to be revealed, as well as the rest of the mysteries. But there was no gravitas or weight to anything in the episode: the 'no action' complaint isn't because it wasn't a fast-paced rollercoaster ride of a thriller, but because the entire episode was just sitting around talking. The story itself was fine. But it wasn't even lazy, it was... tired. The Great Intelligence jumped into the Doctor's timeline and Clara followed him in order to stop him. How did she stop him? Why was the Doctor paradox forgotten about? Why did River Song doom the universe so nonchalantly (when she opened the door)? Why did Jenny disappear but not Strax or Vastra? etc. I knew going into this that none of the questions would be answered, and honestly, I think from that angle it was handled really really well. The Doctor's tomb was an excellent idea that obviously has some significance without spoiling the Doctor's mystery. John Hurt has me intrigued for the anniversary (even though the immersion was completely [censored]tered by the JOHN HURT YOU GUYS ARE YOU MASTURBATING YET?). It just... couldn't really be bothered, and it showed. I mean, the main villain was defeated off-screen for [censored]'s sake.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on May 18, 2013 20:37:12 GMT
We don't need to know how she stopped the Great Intelligence explicitly. It's not really important how she did it, or may play into the 50th special. I wouldn't say he was defeated off screen per say given that he effectively commits suicide as one final act of revenge. Once again River knows more than she is letting on, the spoilers bit shows that as well as the fact that she clearly recognised Clara at the start of the episode so I assume that's why. Jenny disappeared because as Vastra said, the Doctor saved her life when they first met and thus because the Doctor's every victory turned into a loss. A lot of questions were answered to be fair, though I'm still waiting to hear who actually took control of the Tardis back in Season 5.
And I'm sorry, you can't say that the introduction of the Whispermen and Jenny's "I think i've been murdered line" were fantastic.
River's scene with the Doctor was also extremely well done.
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Post by ShayMay on May 18, 2013 20:42:45 GMT
We don't need to know how she stopped the Great Intelligence explicitly. It's not really important how she did it Of course it [censored]ing is, he was presented as being the main villain, and was messing with the entirety of the Doctor's timeline! To just say "Clara sorts it out" would be like having the end of Return of the Jedi be Leia saying "eh, Palpatine just left." It would be such a cop-out! No, he scattered himself through the Doctor's timeline, just like Clara did. Then it cuts away, cuts back and he's gone. That's it. No explanation. Good point! That's cool. Yes, but he also saved Vastra when she woke up, as well as saved Strax. If Jenny disappeared entirely, so would those two, surely? ...Wait, what!? The Silence!
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Post by WinterFlames on May 18, 2013 20:53:05 GMT
I was under the impression that Clara should have died instantly, and that was what River's "Spoilers" was all about. Also... yeah, we never really got a confirmation about the TARDIS blowing up, I'm very eager to get some answers to that.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on May 18, 2013 21:00:18 GMT
Well River establishes that jumping into the time-stream is effectively suicide as the real you is torn into a million pieces and scattered across the Doctor's time line, never able to return. What exists are Echoes and not real people.
In terms of the specifics of how she beats the Intelligence. We may hear more about it as we are not out of the Doctor's life-stream yet, but I think the fact is that the Great Intelligence was able to sneak attack the Doctor and Clara was there to stop him.
Vastra one is fair, but also could be that time hadn't caught up to her before Clara fixed things.
Saying it was the Silence doesn't answer anything. We can assume that the Silence played a hand in it, but how did they do it? How did they take control of the Tardis? This is why the Doctor's Wife interested me when we first saw snippets of it, I thought we were going to meet that being who took over the Tardis. Who said Silence will fall?
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Post by ShayMay on May 18, 2013 21:03:17 GMT
Who said Silence will fall? Clue's in the name there. The very fact that we're debating this validates me. Ambiguity is great in a story, but this was indecipherable with regards to intent and direction. Assuming your explanations are sound, Moffat did a horrible job of conveying them, and that cannot be defended.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on May 18, 2013 21:19:42 GMT
Difference between this and that, is that the Doctor explicitly asked the question, who blew up the Tardis and how at the end of the Big Bang? The Silence and the Voice in the tardis sound nothing alike and no direct link is made between them in Series 6.
Thing is I'm not sure he did do a terrible job in conveying them. The Vastra thing is fair because Jenny disappears because she dies. Strax is at first changed into his old Sontaran self before he presumably would have died in "Glorious combat" at the early age and we just didn't get to Vastra.
I'm going to guess that a lot of the issues relating to the tardis exploding might be answered in the 50th because I do believe that Moffet has had a plan for where he wants to go with Who.
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Post by ShayMay on May 18, 2013 21:37:42 GMT
Difference between this and that, is that the Doctor explicitly asked the question, who blew up the Tardis and how at the end of the Big Bang? The Silence and the Voice in the tardis sound nothing alike and no direct link is made between them in Series 6. I believe this is back to poor conveyance more than anything. I'm not ruling out the TARDIS exploding being a plot device again, but they say Silence will fall. Which is their catchphrase. Because they were trying to prevent the John Hurt (9th, retroactively) Doctor coming back. I think that's all the evidence I need, even if it was never explicitly stated. All the rest of it, though, was poorly-conveyed. Again, let's presume all your explanations are the intent (not saying they're not, this isn't a slight on you). I have seen every episode of the revived series of Who, and I still cannot decipher the intent or explanation behind a lot of the storytelling here. As a resolution it failed. As a set-up it failed. As a STORY it failed on many basic levels: resolving the main plot, developing the main villain or giving him a presence, maintaining a cohesive narrative.
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Post by The KKM on May 19, 2013 1:11:17 GMT
It was a big tent of majestic ideas and sets held up by a pole of melting poo, innit? As usual per Moffat ever since around mid-Season 5. I think that's what angers me most, there's such great material there that isn't being used.
If I understood correctly, the idea of us not seeing Clara defeating the Great Intelligence is that, based on the opening and how she wore the previous' companions' clothes, she's actually all previous female companions. The GI's plan was to have the Doctor lose at every conflict he had, so whenever he was saved by the action of a companion, that was Clara defeating the GI. We've been seeing their conflict since the 60's.
Anyway yeah, decent plot with great sets portrayed in a rubbish manner, won't even bother to watch the rest of season 7, bring in the anniversary so I can amuse myself with John, David, and Matt's acting, much like how I enjoy End of Time for Tennant and Simm alone.
Also and still as usual, Lawrence Miles did the Doctor's tomb plot better
EDIT: Also here I hope River's dead for good this time I don't feel like watching the Doctor snogging again
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Post by Supermorff on May 19, 2013 7:09:59 GMT
the John Hurt (9th, retroactively) Doctor coming back. What? 9th why?
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Post by ShayMay on May 19, 2013 7:37:59 GMT
I'm working on the assumption that this incarnation is the one that did the Time War. What else could make the Doctor shun him?
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on May 19, 2013 8:32:49 GMT
To be fair, the Doctor has been pretty open about his actions in the Time War. That said, it's the only way that makes the book in the library make any sense.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 10:31:33 GMT
I'm working on the assumption that this incarnation is the one that did the Time War. What else could make the Doctor shun him? This is exactly it. There was a rumour circulating a while back that John Hurt was actually playing the "forgotten 9th Doctor" from the Time War. It seemed almost ludicrous at the time, but that's exactly what's come to pass. Plus, this is the first time that Moffat's ever really bothered mentioning the Time War, yet he does so specifically to describe the 'atrocities' the Doctor can commit in the field of battle. Also, how annoying is it that we didn't get a Paul McGann cameo at all in this episode? Even Ecclestone and Tennant got lookalikes to run past, but I didn't catch an 8th Doctor anywhere. Maybe, if we're very nice girls and boys, we'll see McGann regenerate into Hurt in the anniversary as a flashback?
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on May 19, 2013 11:56:30 GMT
Also, how annoying is it that we didn't get a Paul McGann cameo at all in this episode? Even Ecclestone and Tennant got lookalikes to run past, but I didn't catch an 8th Doctor anywhere. I didn't catch it. I didn't spot Tennant either but he's there. I think speculating on who exactly (or, rather, when exactly) John Hurt is playing isn't necessarily the best idea. I'm already seeing dozens of rumours and opinions being posted as absolute truth by fans on Facebook. Let's just wait it out. I loved the episode personally. My one major complaint is how Strax was overused and ruined the tone of a lot of scenes.
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Post by Knuckles on May 19, 2013 12:49:56 GMT
I loved the start, thought it was full of great ideas and had fantastic potential and using Clara interspersed with classic footage was brilliant.I agree Strax was overused but he has been an old joke ever since the Pleasantville episode so I find him tedious anyway.
The middle was also great, with a fantastic story and I loved it all the way up until The Doctor chased after Clara in to his own timeline. Then it got all confusing and a bit silly.
Had they left it at Clara saving The Doctor and wrapped it up somehow I'd have loved it, and there's logic to her coming back in his future, but having The Doctor cross his own timestream to get her back when she shouldn't even exist now there's a thousand of her made it a little bit weird. Also now The Doctor shouldn't exist as there's a thousand of him in his own timestream and the paradox makes my head hurt. I feel they built up a great story carefully, only to throw bricks at it towards the end.
Also, if The Great Intelligence is suddenly defeated I'm actually angry at that. I would have liked to have seen how Clara actually stopped him and it would have been sound reasoning to involve the 10th Doctor as we all know is happening. She also mentions she saw "all 11" of The Doctor's faces which is strange as there should be more surely? All of the faces that haven't happened yet.
I'm not actually sure where/when they were when they saw the "Lost Doctor" and how they were both in one piece, and how River Song got out of the library and found her way to Trenzalore, but maybe a rewatch will answer those questions.
My biggest issue is just that we never see The Great Intelligence being defeated, we just see Clara guiding The Doctor, which is poor. A great villain and such a poor conclusion for him, serving only as an excuse for the timey wimey jump.
But then, Steven Moffat has always been dire at concluding the awesome mysteries he creates. I've not enjoyed the conclusion to River, to the cracks in time and I'm not liking what's been set up here. It's a bit weak.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 13:09:04 GMT
She also mentions she saw "all 11" of The Doctor's faces which is strange as there should be more surely? All of the faces that haven't happened yet. Firstly, she clearly didn't see all of them anyway, as she never saw the "lost" Doctor (so however she was strewn across his timeline, there were clearly restrictions). Secondly, an extra regeneration makes Matt Smith's the 12th Doctor, and Tennant used up one of his regenerations after being shot by a Dalek (and Moffat set this up as being a definitive use of a genuine chance to regenerate by making River give up all of hers to revive the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler), making this Doctor the last regeneration (this is the biggest deal with there being one extra regeneration in the timeline) as far as existing canon goes. We can also see that the TARDIS the Doctor dies with, is the current incarnation. Essentially, Matt Smith is being set up as the final incarnation of the Doctor, presumably to make a bigger story out of how he manages to regenerate again. And I can dig that. If Tennant can get a bombastic farewell, given how great Smith has been at the job (it was genuinely heartbreaking to watch him being upset at learning about Trenzalore at the start of the episode), I'd like to hope that they give him as big a farewell as that, too. Moffat said this episode would begin to reveal where his run on Doctor Who has been leading to the entire time, and between the Doctor writing himself out of history, officially 'dying', and there being an extra regeneration in the total count, it seems to me that the only place all of this is leading to is essentially a 'reboot'. Matt Smith and Moffat are both almost certainly out the door next year, so the anniversary will likely build up this idea further and it'll be finally played out in the next series.
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