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Post by ShayMay on Feb 26, 2012 0:31:40 GMT
The stupidest thing of all this is the fact it's not on 3DS. I mean, are Nintendo crazy? Pokémon is their ultimate ace for selling handhelds and 3DS needs the sales. It's not Team Rocket science... This will, effectively, be the DS' swansong. To be honest, I was hoping they'd skip the third version and move onto Generation 6, for the exact reason that Black and White are so different they couldn't possibly come up with a comprehensive version. But no, there is no way that they'd be able to port a third version to the 3DS: the two technologies are quite different, and the purpose of the third version is to make a quick buck with as little effort as possible. I hope they aren't released as Black and White 2, really, simply as it's disingenuous: it's a misleading title. They aren't sequels, and I can imagine more than one unsuspecting parent going in and buying them expecting a brand-new game for their kiddies only to return disappointed. I mean, I know what I'm getting myself into, at least. Oh, and on a related note, Japan's getting an Extremespeed Pikachu (finally, an actual GOOD event move for the thing) and Meloetta has been revealed. Nobody really cares.
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Feb 26, 2012 8:35:52 GMT
Meloetta has been revealed. Nobody really cares. All part of Nintendo's ongoing nonchalance to the existence of the internet. Why they keep Pokémon secret in the face of every site on the internet already knowing they exist I do not know. They weren't like this with Celebi and they certainly weren't with Mew.
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Post by Nam on Feb 26, 2012 8:42:49 GMT
...Black and White are so different they couldn't possibly come up with a comprehensive version. I'm sorry, but the actual differences between the games are trivial, and it's extremely easy to make a comprehensive version. All you need to do is re-arrange the Pokémon a bit, and change some of the triple battles to rotation battles, so there's an equal amount of each. As far as the two game exclusive cities go, make Opelucid City either A) a modern day city (not old fashioned like in White, not futuristic as in Black), or maybe a retro futuristic (read: steampunk) city. Then, instead of Black City & White Forest, have Grey Town, a small set of buildings, with some battles and some places to catch Pokémon (for true variance, make it a water city, where all the Pokémon you can catch are found through surfing and diving). Make N catch both the legends of Black and White, and have the player catch Kyurem There, I just resolved all the differences for Pokémon Grey. Now add in a few new side quests and mini-games (something Black and White was sorely lacking in), as well as a few other little tweaks and re-designs to gyms and other dungeons (maybe re-sink out the calender, so the seasons are opposite in Grey to what they are in B&W, Summer in B&W is Winter in Grey for example), slap on a label with Kyurem on the front, ship it worldwide and watch everyone buy it.
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Post by ShayMay on Feb 26, 2012 10:20:04 GMT
Yeah, but you've failed to take into account a very important factor: Game Freak.
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Post by Alex on Feb 26, 2012 13:01:30 GMT
There is a possibility that these will, actually, be proper sequels. Black and White's storyline was, firstly, really strong for the series, and secondly, basically completely open ended. Hell, Ghetsis actually says in no uncertain terms at the end that he's going to try again.
I doubt Game Freak would waste this opportunity by just slacking off completely. If they're going to offer two more games for sale, the least they can do is offer a fair amount of new content between both. Obviously, with the same region we're going to see more or less the same progression (though would we continue with our existing characters? Would there be new protagonists?), but a new storyline, some changes to the gyms (new puzzles and rosters at the very least) and maybe a little expansion to Unova itself to give us something new to explore at some point (we have an airport in the game just waiting to be used afterall...).
Honestly, this does have a lot more potential than just a simple 'third game' in 'Grey' (also, we won't have to endure Nintendo's laziness in localising it as 'Gray' worldwide), and that's a good thing. My biggest complaint is that this would have made even more sense if these were 3DS titles as it would be a great way to give the 3DS two new proper Pokemon games without having to create something new from scratch.
Even if we manage to get the R/S remakes on the 3DS in Japan next year (I'd expect that as with last Generation, there'll be a team that's been working on those while another has been working on B/W2), that could quite likely be another 2 years before they make it out here. That'd make the 3DS over 3 years old before we get any Pokemon games for it. Even Diamond and Pearl were available around the DS's second birthday, and they were delayed by over half a year.
My one hope now is that these games will at least be '3DS Enhanced' and at the very, very least, rendered natively. I'm not interested in the 3D effects, and although not being able to use the friends list properly will be frustrating, the major issue is that emulating DS games on a 3DS makes them look like utter arse. It's not exactly a great incentive to own a 3DS if the biggest release Nintendo is putting out for handhelds over the next year plays worse in one than it does in the DS Lite/DSi everyone will already have kicking about. An effort needs to be made somewhere, really.
Edit: Also, Meloetta's surprising reveal is intriguing. I guess they'll probably be distributing her later in the year, but that all but secures Genesect for next year's movie - and then that's the last B/W Pokemon to be revealed, effectively marking the end of the Generation. It seems that we may well be expecting to see a 6th Generation in 2014.
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Post by ShayMay on Feb 26, 2012 13:21:30 GMT
The breakneck pace this generation is going, I seriously doubt that we'll be getting any R/S/E remakes before Generation 6. With the only reveal left being Genesect's, and this game being slotted for June this year in Japan (another reason why I doubt we'll be getting too much of an overhaul - although I wouldn't rule out it being an actual sequel storywise - this seems to have been planned), and the 3DS already being out and gagging for a killer app such as this (Mario 3D Land isn't a console-seller and all the rest of the Nintendo stuff have been remakes), I'm actually expecting us to be in generation 6 on the 3DS in 2014. All the evidence, with the exception of the HM list (which would have been sorted out early in the game's design stage when there was the possibility of R/S/E remakes) points to this being a shorter generation a la 1 or 2. And frankly I'm pleased about that. I've liked generation 5, but Unova was never a particularly riveting region, and the emphasis on Dream World effectively making it more trouble than it's worth to put together a battling team (and I don't even mind EV training) really put me off.
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Post by Alex on Feb 26, 2012 13:44:52 GMT
If we assume 2014 for Generation VI, there's no real reason we couldn't (and wouldn't) have R/S remakes out next year. Whether they'll be DS or 3DS games at this point, though, I don't think I could say any more. I'd have felt certain that they could take advantage of a bit more development time and a different region to have to put together to move to the 3DS, but I'm also quite certain that the idea of B/W2 over Grey should be on the 3DS over the DS also, so I guess the waters are a lot more muddied.
Of course, they could just have moved the other team straight onto Gen VI after B/W were completed - especially since they would have gotten their 3DS devkits just a few months before that point - and that could mean a quick skip and jump straight into Gen VI as early as next year (the anime may even serve to back this point up, since they're powering through the gyms quite quickly there, it's quite feasible that they could be wrapped up by the end of next year at this rate).
It is a lot more difficult to tell what the gameplan is this time around, really. The 3DS was a curveball I don't think Game Freak planned well enough ahead for. Made worse by the fact Nintendo kept their cards too close to their chest for too long and it's resulted in stupid [censored] like B/W being released the week before the 3DS - but for the wrong system. It could have been enough for them to change their plans, and you are right that if anything could be sacrificed to make better time in moving to the 3DS, it'd be the remakes - even if we're only talking about a delay of a couple of years. I think it's pretty hard to call this one way or another now. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
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Post by madhair60 on Feb 26, 2012 15:57:33 GMT
Quite excited for this, Black/White were the best Pokémon games since the original Gold.
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Post by Mango on Feb 28, 2012 19:15:15 GMT
I'm going to wait and see what this set of games has to offer before I pass any judgement. I'm still working through White and I can't see myself buying a game that has very little different about it, but if there's enough of a change, I might be swayed.
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Post by Alex on Feb 29, 2012 23:23:17 GMT
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Post by Arch_one_zero_one on Mar 1, 2012 3:18:31 GMT
Is it not possible that Black and White 2 will actually be both the Ruby and Sapphire remakes, and direct sequels to Black and White? Couldn't help but notice that part of the Japanese logos look an awful lot like a ruby and a sapphire. It could be kind of like Gold and Silver, where you start off in Hoenn, and then travel to Unova to see what's changed since you beat Plasma in B&W, or vice versa (although the former would be preferable imo). There was an airport in Unova which didn't actually do anything in B&W, if I remember rightly? Could easily be re-purposed. It's probably wishful thinking, but if it does end up being the case, these'll definitely be a day one purchase.
Also, those Bionicles are amazing.
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Post by Alex on Mar 1, 2012 8:49:30 GMT
The logos represent ice/fire and ice/electric because of kyurem's formes. The fact they look vaguely jewel shape is a coincidence, the shape is determined by the original B/W logo in Japan, just with that effect overlaid on part of it like a creeping frost.
If we bypass the R/D remakes, I'd be pretty certain its because of Nintendo throwing a spanner in the works in the form of the 3DS. Game freak may have had to abandon existing plans to shift to the new platform. I think Meloetta's unhealed and rushed reveal does demonstrate a sense of urgency on their part. If this is the case, I could imagine that they'd roll any ideas they may have had for the remakes into these instead, but anyone holding out for Hoenn itself to show up may as well just give up on life now.
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Post by ShayMay on Apr 12, 2012 17:33:40 GMT
So Black and White 2 are confirmed to be sequels. New protagonists, 300 Pokémon in the Unova 'Dex (including Tyranitar and Metagross' lines, as well as Lapras which I'm happy about), couple of extra Gym Leaders, and Unova being covered in Ice. Wonder who could have done that?
It removes a fair number of my complaints with Unova (small Pokédex, bland layout, etc.) so I'm super-chuffed but my main concern is that it's called Black and White 2, when it takes place in the same region and will feature pretty much identical elements to the first ones, which is pretty audacious. I can imagine more than one parent or unsuspecting kid buying these and then being disappointed at just how much the same it is.
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Post by Alex on Apr 12, 2012 17:50:40 GMT
In fairness, it's a sequel and the games have a '2' after them. It's hardly false advertising. There does seem to be a lot more different about the games to justify the name and a whole new pair of releases. Unlike Platinum, Emerald and Crystal, these games from the start will play as differently to B/W as Gold and Silver does to Red and Blue. Sure, both sets of games are set in the Unova Region, but that region is pretty different between the two games and with a bunch more Pokemon included, some new gym leaders and new routes/cities, it really should be a fairly new experience. I've still got a list of stuff I want to see from these games to really 'sell' me on them (although, really, there was never any chance I wouldn't be buying one of them), but today's news is promising. Hopefully they'll build on it with some new mechanics or features as well. Chief amongst them would be a feature that makes the game not look like ass on a 3DS...
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Post by Nam on Apr 12, 2012 21:39:20 GMT
...Chief amongst them would be a feature that makes the game not look like ass on a 3DS... Simple fix. Don't play it in a 3DS, that way the 3DS can't make it look like ass. I do like the idea of an expanded roster, but would personally like a lot more variance between routes. All the really interesting Pokémon were caught much too late in the game to be useful, and the first route offered you a whole two Pokémon to catch. I'd much rather have lots of Pokémon spread about, and availiable throughout the area, rather than most inhabiting just one cave/route/area. As for new areas and gyms, I'm fine with that, but the other complaint that needs to be addressed is that there's actually [censored] all to do in Unova beyond leveling up and fighting. Yes there's also the musicals, but they were such a waste. Where were the mini-games? The fetch quests? The random hidden items you can't get until you get a later HM? The puzzles on the routes? The daily freebies? None of that was in Black and White until after the elite four, making the game feel even more linear than it was.
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Post by ShayMay on Apr 12, 2012 21:45:06 GMT
I do like the idea of an expanded roster, but would personally like a lot more variance between routes. The expanded roster kind of implies that that will be the case. In a Pokémon game.
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Post by Alex on Apr 12, 2012 21:49:15 GMT
...Chief amongst them would be a feature that makes the game not look like ass on a 3DS... Simple fix. Don't play it in a 3DS, that way the 3DS can't make it look like ass. Great idea! I'll just throw away the £250 'state of the art' gaming system that I bought barely a year ago and go and buy a DS Lite instead to play these games. That's clearly what I, as a consumer of your brand, want to be doing Mr. Nintendo!
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Post by Nam on Apr 12, 2012 23:12:08 GMT
But that's really not all there is to Pokémon. Take Gold for example, by the time you've beaten the third gym you can start collecting acorns for new Pokéballs, play in the game corner, participate in bug catching contests, explore and make a start on going through the Ruins of Alph, wander through all the way to either Mahogony town via a detour in Mt Silver, or Olivine city, start breeding and hatching Pokémon eggs, buy haircuts to work on Pokémon's happiness, and generally have access to about half of Johto. Conversely, by that point in Black, you'll have nothing to do but fight trainers, and grind. There's no optional sidequests, all the optional areas are pretty much blocked off until after you beat the elite four, there's no real puzzles or minigames, and there's barely enough different pokémon each area to lesson the monotony of the grind. Black was stupidly and insanely linear, and had nothing to do in it beyond catch all the three new pokémon in each area, grab all the items laying in the path, and level up for the forth gym. Which is ironic as the forth town, Nimbasa, serves as the "heart of leisure and entertainment for Unova". What entertainment? Battling! and then a different type of battling! and then more battling! and then a musical mini-game which is essentially "what items match the vague theme of the musical prexented, then watch your pokemon dance for a bit while you do nothing!" Then more battling! ...oh and the ferris wheel of battling!The more I think about it, the more Black was crap in the optional side of things front. So much time with nowt to do but grind, and nothing to break up the monotony. Sure there's the dream world, but [censored] that. I don't count a set of minigames that are played on a different console.
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Post by Beeth on Apr 12, 2012 23:21:24 GMT
^ Everything that guy said. I enjoyed playing through HeartGold as there was so much to do and see, there were extra sidequests and hidden goodies everywhere you looked really. White just seemed to be a chore at times, pushing me along a very specific path with little in the way of extra things to do. The closest thing I've seen to a sidequest so far (admittedly I never finished the game) was the Liberty Pass mission to get Victini, and even that was a temporary downloadable mission which has now long since become unavailable to new players. I will get back to it one day, try and finish the thing. Come to think of it, I've still the Kanto bit of HeartGold to finish as well.
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Post by ShayMay on Apr 12, 2012 23:31:51 GMT
When I play Pokémon it is to battle Pokémon and facilitate the battling of Pokémon. I do agree that there is a lack of side-quests and "off the beaten path" areas in Unova (especially after the powerhouse of level design that was Sinnoh), but I undertake these side-quests in the interests of battling new trainers and getting new items to facilitate the battling of new trainers.
I mean, maybe I'm missing something here, but the overworld rarely strikes me as the pièce de résistance of an RPG, and Pokémon's attempts at distractions have been woeful. I'm not saying the overworld isn't important, as it definitely is - Unova did strike me as quite bland and forgettable and thus my enjoyment was diminished - but at the same time if the overworld isn't preparing me for the next fight I couldn't care less.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Apr 13, 2012 5:32:39 GMT
I've always thought they should just go ahead and make a sandbox Pokemon game. At its best, Pokemon came close to that format with all the little distractions and side-quests available. Then again, I can see why they made Black/White more linear as, for a considerable number of people, competitive battling's the real meat of the series and many probably want to get to that point as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Still, a sandbox Pokemon game... It's so beautiful in my mind.
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Post by Nam on Apr 13, 2012 9:49:47 GMT
When I play Pokémon it is to battle Pokémon and facilitate the battling of Pokémon. I do agree that there is a lack of side-quests and "off the beaten path" areas in Unova (especially after the powerhouse of level design that was Sinnoh), but I undertake these side-quests in the interests of battling new trainers and getting new items to facilitate the battling of new trainers. I mean, maybe I'm missing something here, but the overworld rarely strikes me as the pièce de résistance of an RPG, and Pokémon's attempts at distractions have been woeful. I'm not saying the overworld isn't important, as it definitely is - Unova did strike me as quite bland and forgettable and thus my enjoyment was diminished - but at the same time if the overworld isn't preparing me for the next fight I couldn't care less. See I'm the exact opposite. The second there's no more new areas to go, and no new treasures to find, I've lost all interest. Bear in mind I mapped out the entirety of the underground in Sinnoh in pursuit of treasures (what a waste of time that was). This is why I liked HG/SS so much, it was such a large map, with so many optional areas, and lots to find and make use of. I trekked every inch of that place and got every single hidden treasure I could find, even deliberately getting all the Unown, and porting over Arceus to get to the Shinjoh temple (or whatever it was called). I love the way the Pokémon world is so open to exploration, with the various TM's opening up new areas in old routes so after every gym there's something new to go get even in old areas. Really helps break the game up. Of course once it's all done I'm done with the game. I never fought Red in Soul Silver for that reason. I'd explored the world, there was nothing left, and I no longer had anything with which to endure but hours of mindless grind if I wanted a chance to beat him. Naturally, he remains undefeated. I figure I'll do it eventually, but I really can't be arsed to grind the ten levels. I pretty much slugged through every single fight just in search of the next part of the world, and the next treasure, even if it is just a [censored]ty Paralyze heal that will just sit in my bag unused. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the fighting, and if I did I'd play summat else, but really it gets old fast, esp. if you've already got your team pretty set up and there's no new attacks to learn, and you have to kill a hundred Pokémon thirty levels lower than yours to gain one level per Pokémon, and need to gain five levels or more for all of them (a fact that Black & White's devalued leveling system makes even more arduous - less experience for a higher level Pokémon killing a lower one when the highest Pokémon you can find in the wild is about level 45 and you need to be about 65+, [censored] the [censored] off ¬¬)
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Post by Alex on Apr 14, 2012 13:03:28 GMT
I think there's plenty of extra stuff to explore in Unova, though they did skimp on the mini-games/fetch quests I guess. Didn't really bother me though as the main game had a much tighter storyline and interesting characters than previous games. That alone was enough to cut through the repetitiveness of the battling.
It looks like they'll be including some sort of movie-based sidequest this time? Possibly replacing the musicals, or maybe featuring alongside them. Who knows. Looks better than the musicals did though.
Overall, it seems that the main game is going to be rather heavily shaken up in comparison to B/W. Seems that they're focusing on new areas a lot, and revamping the existing ones a fair amount (though, really, it's insane that they're saying all this has changed in just two years - but whatever). It looks as if we're getting a whole new evil bad guy team to fight too - which I kinda like, but at the same time, I feel that B/W's open-ended plotline with Ghetsis and N really should be taken advantage of given that these are sequels and everything.
Maybe their role will be revealed through the game, though. Who knows.
I'm actually really excited by the Pokemon we'll encounter within the game, too. They've picked a pretty varied and interesting selection, it seems. If anything, it looks like some of the more under-represented and uncommon Pokemon are getting a chance to shine. It should really shake up the dynamic of the games.
I'm liking what I'm seeing, but still really, really, want to see more new features and stuff. And I'm hoping that, as with previous 'third instalments', we'll see stuff like triple battles expanded upon a lot more. The potential for shaking up the battle system with a LOT more double and triple/rotation battles could break up the same old pace a lot.
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Post by ShayMay on Apr 14, 2012 13:56:07 GMT
Ahh, Nam, that makes more sense. I thought you meant like... you didn't enjoy the fighting. Yeah, Unova was a bit weird for the level curve, but I think what they intended you to do was have an actual struggle after the Elite Four: I just launched straight into it despite the level disadvantage and emerged with more than a few scratches, but I kinda welcomed the challenge.
As for B/W2, yeah, a few new features wouldn't go amiss. Nor would the removal of the Dream World, imo, but either way I'm a lot more excited about this than I was. It looks like they're not pulling any punches for the deluxe version(s) this time.
Even though Game Freak think it's a sequel.
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Post by Nam on Apr 14, 2012 22:10:44 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the fighting, when it's actually close fights that matter. Trainers can be a pain, but they're okay too. But the grind, Jesus Christ the grind. I cannot be arsed with it, takes way too long, and is generally just so dull, and IMO B&W was the worst in the series for grinding, forcing ages of grind after before the first three gyms, then by the fifth gym giving you surf and (should you go on a, at that point, much needed exploration moment) letting you break the level curve completely. It only caught up again at the elite four.
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