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Post by Nam on Jun 30, 2008 19:22:09 GMT
In reverse order:
Tekno and Shorty. So... what was the point of sending them to the arabian-esque area again? Surely Set could've just brought them where needed when first going through the dimensional ring. In particular with this story, it's a real non event. I can't help but wonder why this is an entire story? STC-O has done in five pages, what STC would've done in three.
Something that I realised reading this story, STC-O has a problem with panels, or rather, not having enough of them. If you think of each page as an A4 page of paper, then many panels of the shorty story seem to happen as one third of a page. This entire fight happens over several pages, when the same details could occupy the same number of panels in much less space.
Not that this story seems to do anything but be a fight. It literally seems like a case of someone going "right, lets make some action". But it doesn't seem like a fight. There's no sense of challenge, no sense of threat, and it doesn't even seem like Shorty's opponent seems to care what happens either way. That might be deliberate, I don't know, but this story left me going "eh?"
Although not as much as Rouge's story. I mean no offence to Robert Frasier, but what the feckity feck feck? It's not made clear who any character bar Rouge is, it's not made clear what they do, it's not made clear what Rouge is up to, it's not made clear why they do what they're doing. In summary I had no idea what the hell was going on here. Even ignoring all the big words, I had no idea what was going on here. Every part of this story was just ... urgh.
I mean STC, and STC-O have had stories that have left me confused. They've had there mysterries, but this one... I can't work out for the life of me what's going on. It seems like a bunch of random events thrown together. I'm sure on some level it's a work of genius, but that story is nigh on inpenetrable to it's target audience.
and as for Sonic's Story ... well I'll just say it. I REALLY hate this "media enemy" arc. I do not give a flying monkey's about the peoples perception of Sonic in the new free world. I do not want to read about it. I want to see Sonic as a hero, defeating villains. I do not want him to have to deal with bad publicity, and the issues regarding being famous. don't want, don't care for, really hope it's over and soon.
However, for all the faults with the idea, and with the arc, this story wasn't too bad. The throwaway joke, combined with the expression of Sonic's when he thinks Big the Cat is behind it, I was grinning, I'll admit it. Likewise racing against a missile, that showed some proper Sonic type action. Having whichever one of the Marxio's it was dangling from a pipe in the Chemical Plant zone was great to look at visually.
But the ending... I dunno, anti-climax much. Fed up of seeing stories switch from an omniscient perspective to "what's broadcast on TV" perspective. Also didn't really seem like a cliffhanger ending, nor did it seem like any kind of ending. Just sort of an end due to space constraints. Like there should be more to this story (and there will be obviously). Very flat ending.
While I can't lay fault on Rouge's story for this, the other two, (Shorty's in particular), are slowly getting burried in a case of being continuity resolving, plothole fixing stories. The continuities are getting too saturated with stories that resolve issues within them. We're not getting regular new content, so much as we are getting reminded of old content, and finding out how they intertwine with the story. Everything from the past is returning
Bar the one thing anyone actually wants to return. If you can't guess what I mean, it starts with R, ends with K, and would make the comic much more like the original STC for it's return.
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Post by Michael on Jun 30, 2008 20:03:01 GMT
RE: Tekno & Shorty Heh, I just read through my original script. It's so odd that everything's pretty much exactly as I wrote all those months ago (Almost 18 now, yikes!). Funny how much things change. As for why dump them in Solstice rather than directly into Set's lap; when putting a story together you have to consider the setup of the story, not just the pay off, and there are things that happen in both these 2 parts that play into what happens in future Tekno & Shorty stories and are neccessary. And it abslutely could have been done in less pages. It would also have then naffed up the pacing and looked cramped. After 8 years of this I've learned a little about how things should flow from page to page! Re: Whodunit? STC never really shied away from giving Sonic tougher issues to face than just "defeat villain X of the week and celebrate with a chilli dog" and I love this angle personally. Though as you've stated you don't find the idea of a vigilante in a free society interesting then I guess you're not the target audience. Besides, the media isn't the enemy, Sonic has repeatedly done their job for them. Whether we understand why Sonic has done what he's done in the past or not, isn't it just fascinating to people how those actions can be perceived differently? I mean, last issue there was a spectacular line about Kintobor's sensors not being as fully operational as a lot of zones had denied him access. Had anyone even considered the ramifications of that sensor network before? No, it was always just taken for granted that Sonic's the hero full stop but things don't work that way! I found the ending to be extremely tense and exciting, personally. Sonic's been framed before but never on this scale and add to that the KBC campaign and you've got the whole planet scared of what he's going to do next and now he's been captured by the military! I found the news report angle actually hightened it for me rather than dampened it. As for getting buried in continuity, I see this get leveled at just about any comic that doesn't start with issue 1 of an entirely new imprint. STC had a hell of a lot of continuity, which is what made it such a rich universe that would make us all devote so much of our time to it. I can definitively speak about my Tekno & Shorty arc and say that you do not need any past knowledge of the characters to understand what is going on in this arc. And if you feel like you do, then either you're not reading the captions or are more than free to peruse the back issues section! It's only natural to build on the foundations you have, but we have laid quite a few new and unique stones along the way and will continue to do so. But hey, maybe you'll enjoy next issue! I sure hope so as it's always dissapointing when someone dislikes the angle you're taking in the comic, but it's all part of the fun! Mike
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Tom
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Hume-who-used-to-think-he-was-in-charge
Posts: 3,786
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Post by Tom on Jun 30, 2008 20:12:10 GMT
Something that I realised reading this story, STC-O has a problem with panels, or rather, not having enough of them. If you think of each page as an A4 page of paper, then many panels of the shorty story seem to happen as one third of a page. This entire fight happens over several pages, when the same details could occupy the same number of panels in much less space. It's 100% true to the original. It was extremely rare for a page of STC to feature more than six panels, and it was usually less than even that. The artwork is showcased a lot better this way. The trick is to make every panel matter. Dude, he was beating up Chicio on the first page... I don't think the theme of Sonic's public persona woes is ending any time soon (it might even get worse) - however, action, it is a-coming... Sonic, unconscious, about to be arrested under suspicion of terrorist activity? (They can hold him a lot longer than 42 days on Mobius!) Rock? Sorry, I have no idea what you're on about...
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Post by Nam on Jun 30, 2008 20:17:37 GMT
<<< From Mike >>> Oh, crap! Sorry I clicked modify instead of reply there. Crap! Please repost your original. Damn I knew that would happen to me sooner or later. My hayfever's been particularly bad and I keep clicking randomly when I sneeze (Don't worry, one hand on the mouse, the other holding a tissue!). Umm, sorry again! <<< From Mike >>> tuhh... useless *finds in history of back button-ness* ... and now he's been captured by the military! I found the news report angle actually hightened it for me rather than dampened it. This is said where in the comic? And neh, I can't be botherred to argue my point further. I've said all I want to. I've made it quite clear I dislike the idea of the story, thus ultimately this will just turn into "my opinion is better than your opinion", and I'll just sit here waiting for Robotnik to return, and then get all pissy when you [censored] that up hope that's more to the type of story I like It's all just boiling down to which is better now, having Sonic fight a genuine threat, or having Sonic prove he needs Robotnik to give him something to do. However this has been obvious since issue 104, and it was shown in just one panel; Sonic kicking a pebble, while going "bored, bored, bored, bored, bored!" Also, when did it become a game of "reply to Namgge's criticism, en masse", for the ed's and writers? Anyway, bring on 250. Please.
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Tom
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Hume-who-used-to-think-he-was-in-charge
Posts: 3,786
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Post by Tom on Jun 30, 2008 20:40:28 GMT
This is said where in the comic? Bottom of page 7. It doesn't get much clearer than "SONIC CAPTURED" and "NEXT ISSUE: SONIC THE PRISONER!".
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Post by Nam on Jun 30, 2008 20:48:32 GMT
This is said where in the comic? Bottom of page 7. It doesn't get much clearer than "SONIC CAPTURED" and "NEXT ISSUE: SONIC THE PRISONER!". Didn't say it was the army. Just captured. That could mean anyone. Plus I don't ever read next issue things, due to spoilers.
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Post by Michael on Jun 30, 2008 20:56:11 GMT
Also, when did it become a game of "reply to Namgge's criticism, en masse", for the ed's and writers? You should be honored! Well, there's only so many times you can respond to positive feedback without it getting tiresome (Who wants to see a topic full of "Thanks!" and "Oh, you liked that colouring? You'll make me blush!" etc?). You make some points that while I may not agree with, you're opinion is no less valid (I don't quite understand your position of any discussion turning into a "my opinion is better than yours" though as I prefer to believe people are better than that) and so, personally, I find it interesting to discuss them with you. If other people who dislike certain things give me something to grab hold of (keep the zippers up, folks, I ain't going there!) and respond to then I will. It just so happens yours was the post at the end so I replied to that first, and then prompty forgot to read the previous page (Which I will get to tomorrow!). I'm with Tom though, R? K? Drawing a blank... Mike
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Post by Nam on Jun 30, 2008 21:09:58 GMT
You make some points that while I may not agree with, you're opinion is no less valid (I don't quite understand your position of any discussion turning into a "my opinion is better than yours" though as I prefer to believe people are better than that) and so, personally, I find it interesting to discuss them with you. It seems to happen a fair bit (or rather I perceive it to be like that) with Charles. You and Tom aren't quite so bad with it I hear what you're saying about there's only so many times you can reply to praise, seen it and done it myself, t'is annoying. On the other hand, there's only so many times I can say "you're doing it wrong!" and have people flat out disagree with it, without accepting any points I might be right on. T'is nice to know some of my criticisms are actually being seen as somewhat valid, I've always felt like I'm arguing with a brick wall with my comments. While I know it's your comic, and you can do what you like, being blasted and having personal opinions dissected by the writers, and constantly being pulled up on issues of contention all the time, to the point where I'm repeating myself over and over, gets highly frustrating. That's why it always seems like "my opinion is better than your opinion".
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Post by Awdures on Jun 30, 2008 21:19:38 GMT
Been checking the past few days since June is just about up ;-) Happy to see this tonight.
As for the Sonic story, I'm one of those who is enjoying the plot at the moment. Kane is a suitably hissable baddie, and while the basic idea is not that new, it's all in the execution and interesting to see how it pans out in STC's world.
I did think it was a bit heavy on dialogue but that's a bit hard to avoid when you're essentially setting up a mystery to be solved, with Sonic looking for the "clues".
That said, I smiled at Sonic's recitation of previous opponents.
Rouge's story was intriguing and fun, made more so, I thought by the fact she never said a word and we're all left guessing just like the characters themselves.
Looks like someone had fun setting up Hilltop as a high tech, academic type society, though it seemed a little odd we've heard nothing of it before. Suspension of disbelief can be allowed for the sake of Plot there I think, since it's well established that the zones vary hugely in culture and technology.
I liked the "casting" of the old heroes arrayed behind the Duke in the speech -- something very aptly "old soldier" about the choice of critters. In fact all the animal characters were interesting here.
I like to be surprised by a story, and was pleasantly so to find Shorty losing his fight against Slave and get carted off. I'd utterly forgotten Set (or Seth or Sut -- how does one approximate spelling from a language which never used the Western alphabet anyway...). Could have been grounds for one of Megadroid's asides there I think.
In fact a lot of the exposition and recapping which some have complained of could be removed with more use of that -- I know it's a bit contrived, but no one could argue it wasn't true to the original.
Has there been a deliberate decision among the writing and editing staff to try and integrate more of the continuity into the captions and dialogue than explicit reminders?
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jun 30, 2008 21:24:21 GMT
... and now he's been captured by the military! I found the news report angle actually hightened it for me rather than dampened it. I didn't realise Mobius had a military. I always thought they had a semi-competent but extremely well-equipped police force for each zone.
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Post by Pete on Jun 30, 2008 21:38:37 GMT
See, that's the whole point of it; this is comic. With the forum as part of the comic, we have the oppertunity to say where the writers are falling short, but for praising them for nailing a strip! Everyone that's contributed to the comic is a fan, and everyone has they're own point of view. I personally don't like the Family. No particular reason, I just haven't clicked with them. KBC, on the other hand, I like. Kane himself reminds me of The Kingpin in the Marvel comics, as they're both arrogant White Collar Criminals- they're guilty as sin, but no-one can prove it.
Regarding this issue; the Sonic story had some beautiful art from Mike, who's fast becoming a favourite of mine, but I can't help but feel that this story wasn't needed so much. Sonic, last issue, was knocked out, and at the end of this one, again, he's conconcious. Sonic could have been found and captured by the Army, after being tipped off by the real villain, woke up in custody, and found out about his double in prison.
Rouge- I echo other's comments, and found myself alienated by this. I'd like to think that I have a sizable vocabulary, but I found it difficult to get to the end of the story. There also seemed to be too many characters introduced in such a short space, which wasn't helped by the sheer amount of people per panal. I get that you want to make it look busy, but it might help by singling out Rouge in full colour, and have the crowds in a solid colour.
I did notice a few cameos however; Dinzi, I swear is based off a Cornelius from Babar, and on page 3, there's a snake coloured like an Ekans (from Pokemon).
Tekno and Shorty, I liked. I love Chris' art- some beautiful colouring. I liked Solstice, and Shorty's attitude towards it, so I'm a little sad to see it go. Set, I can't actually remember in the comic, so I'll have to go and re-read that at some point.
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Post by Retro on Jun 30, 2008 22:16:27 GMT
Who else other than the military is going to have huge twin bladed chinooks? It's the first thought that hit my mind.
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Post by Baxter on Jul 1, 2008 3:48:31 GMT
Bit of a mixed bag, this one.
Sonic - Again, I'm going to refrain final judgement until the ultimate direction of the Kane arc is clear. However, I will say the numerous possibilities from here onwards have me intrigued - most notably, whether Sonic can retain the support of his allies after recent events, and if not, how will he cope alone? It'll certainly be interesting to discover what exactly this "revolution" entails. And for what it's worth, I seem to be one of the few who's enjoying this new breed of antagonist. Excellent artwork, also.
Rouge - Hate to put a downer on someone's first strip, but I really have to nod with the general consensus here - this is ill-suited for a comic that's supposed to be targeted at a younger audience.
Tekno/Shorty - Good dialogue ("overgrown luchador!"), great artwork, surprising turn of events - just a fine strip all-round. Again, props to Mike for actually making me care about these two, something previous writers could never accomplish.
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Post by Robert Frazer on Jul 1, 2008 10:55:18 GMT
Salutations everyone. Apologies for not involving myself in the thread sooner, but I've been away over this weekend and only just returned. And it's a lovely homecoming present to find my first strip waiting for me. Rouge Alert has had an unusually long development - the first draft of the script was submitted back in October 2005! - and so to see it finally brought to life gives me a great sense of fulfilment. It's the artists, though, who created that happy sensation. Jonathan Lock has never been part of the forum, but nonetheless his work deserves highlighting. Pete brought up "crowded panels" as a problem in his work, but the congested bustle is an intentional reflection of the tight close-quarters the action is taking place in... and, er, solid-colour backgrounds are used! On a purely artistic level, I echo Awdures in admiring the great variety found in Lock's character designs: it's a grand display of imagination and diligent attention to detail, and gives the scenes a strong source of interesting vitality. Even if the panels are dense, they're never dull. Retro's put in sterling work as well which I'm honoured to have gracing the strip. He's used a wide palette whilst still keeping up definite and distinctive themes, whether it's the rich burgundy of the footmen in page three or the blue stone which recalls the actual Zone in Sonic 2 itself. His subtle use of shading has worked particularly well, giving the characters depth while not smearing shadow everywhere, and so keeping the pages colourful and vivid. Just John, Devo, Warped: ...if you're not sure where things are leading, bear in mind that it is "Part One of Two"! Namagge, exercising my right of reply, I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you. "Zone Intelligence - 'Keepers' - Field HQ" is a clear and unambiguous statement of who Dunzi is and what he and his men do, and as for why they do it... isn't stopping a known criminal, notorious hellraiser and established villainess reason enough? Admittedly my position as a writer already aware of all the links means that I might not be able to see the strip from your perspective, Namagge, but even so I'm not sure how the strip could be viewed a jumble of "random events" when there's a straightforward narrative progression through it: -Rouge arrives at the High Academy -The Duke is giving a speech there. The Keepers are manning surveillance. -The Keepers detect and try to arrest Rouge. -Rouge evades the Keepers. -Rouge penetrates to the location where the Duke is making the presentation. -She activates a bomb...! And as for what Rouge herself hopes to gain by that... again, it's a two-part story. Perhaps the most consistent criticism has been about the strip's verbosity, so I ought to address it in detail. I'm not sure that the strip is unnecessarily verbose in the first place - in fact, the first five pages of Whodunit? actually have almost a hundred more words in them than there are in all of Rouge Alert! While some text might not seem to serve any immediate purpose, I assert that none of it is redundant: the specific point of the Duke's long speech (which I think might be the source of most complaints about verbiage) will become very significant in Part Two so I'll have to ask you to bear with me on that mark, but to explain generally I have to go back to the strip's title. I made a particular point of Rouge Alert being written under the "Sonic's World" banner, and I hope it satisfies Namagge's desire for STCO to more faithfully reflect the original STC because that's precisely what I'm aiming for. I disliked the "Sonic's World" strips when, in later issues, they were degraded into just a second Sonic strip - Rouge Alert is an attempt to restore the original vision of "Sonic's World" as a strip describing... well, Sonic's world! I don't like the setting to be just an empty backdrop, of no more consequence than the writer rolling a die to see which Zone is going to be ripped up by collateral damage today; I feel that a story is more compelling when you have a better appreciation of what the action's being fought over. Elements like the two different views of the Hill Top populace's zonal character in the opening panel, the air's pumice-count, Mhiltan the protestor and the way he's casually shaken off as unimportant, the Bounder Brigade speaking in a foreign language, the niceties of etiquette around the Duke and the suggestions of the mural itself don't further the plot, but they're not intended to - they are suffusing the strip with a depth of background detail. Rouge Alert is an exercise in worldbuilding as much as it is storytelling, and I'm pleased that it has provoked debate in this thread on the level of technology typical to Mobius because getting people thinking about the wide, wondrous lands that lie off-panel is one of the strip's objectives, and one that I think I can mark down as a success. I've a lot more to say about life, love, loyalty and labour in the Hill Top Zone, and hopefully I can build up on the foundations lain here. Also, there's a few little hints and visual clues scattered about Rouge Alert indicating that all is not what it seems for the coming conclusion - see if you can find them all.
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Post by Nam on Jul 1, 2008 11:27:08 GMT
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you. "Zone Intelligence - 'Keepers' - Field HQ" is a clear and unambiguous statement of who Dunzi is and what he and his men do, and as for why they do it... isn't stopping a known criminal, notorious hellraiser and established villainess reason enough? Maybe I'm forgetting things, but at what point in the continuity did anyone find out about the events she's been guilty of? Everything done with Knuckles, presumably would've stayed on the floating Island. There'd be no reason for that to go anywhere considerring Knuckles' nature, and dedication to said island. As for the Death Carrier stuff, again at what point was it made clear she was involved with it? Yes she was on it, but A) who knew, and B) how did they find out? perhaps this is me misinterpreting, or assuming things, but I never saw in any place of her stories, that she was essentially guilty of anything. This of course ignores past stories, ones which existed outside of the comic I suppose... And as for what Rouge herself hopes to gain by that... again, it's a two-part story. It just seems very ... dis-jointed. However I can't fault it for deliberately keeping things in the dark, it is a mystery, and I'm guilty of doing that myself. It's just the extent it's issued in I guess. We're just suddenly thrown into the thick of it, with no indication of what exactly is going on, and we only get a reveal of a bomb at the end. I dunno, maybe it is one of those things you need part two for, but as a first half it's left a sour taste in my mouth in it's delivery as a set up half. On it's own it seems to be like it's missing a prologue. It doesn't seem to give the reader anything to latch on to, just "here's what's going on right now in the hill top zone." I can't put my finger on what's to fault here, and that's what's annoying me a lot about this story. It needs something I can't quite get my finger on. If part two makes it obvious, then this is a non-issue, but with just part one to look at, it feels sorta lacking of any sense of direction beyond "play by play news as it happens"
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2008 11:47:50 GMT
Maybe I'm forgetting things, but at what point in the continuity did anyone find out about the events she's been guilty of? Everything done with Knuckles, presumably would've stayed on the floating Island. There'd be no reason for that to go anywhere considerring Knuckles' nature, and dedication to said island. Big put in a crime report the minute he got off the Floating Island. (Use your imagination, man. Do you really expect these characters do NOTHING off-panel? When do they get to pee?!!)
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 1, 2008 11:50:18 GMT
I'm re-reading the whole arc, and I have to say that with hindsight it pans out a lot better than I gave it credit for. "The Debt Collectors" is a wonderful story, as is "Out of Psyche".
The comic improves as new stories appear and flesh out the old ones, making motivations and actions clear... but the individual stories still suffer as they really don't stand alone.
Incidentally - have I missed something? When Sonic threatens Chicio in this issue, he says "My friends have been injured". Is he speaking in broad terms, because if he means Tails, Amy etc. when did this happen? Between stories?
Also, re: Rouge Alert! I've not seen Retro's colour work before, but it's really [censored]ing good, so nice work there Retro. I'm also loving Chris G's art in the Tekno story. Hell, all the art is always good.
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Post by The Stiv™ on Jul 1, 2008 11:58:48 GMT
It's Groucho =/. At the end of the last story, Kintobor says through Sonic's com-watch: "The Control Centre was attacked - The Gang are hurt!"
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Tom
Ex-Hume
Hume-who-used-to-think-he-was-in-charge
Posts: 3,786
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2008 12:04:32 GMT
It's Chicio...
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Post by The Stiv™ on Jul 1, 2008 12:07:49 GMT
It's Grouchio
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Jul 1, 2008 13:07:16 GMT
Dude, that is blatantly Grouchio. Chicio is the guy that looks like Matt Le Blanc with a moustache! XD
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 1, 2008 13:49:04 GMT
Grouchio then, who the [censored] cares
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Tom
Ex-Hume
Hume-who-used-to-think-he-was-in-charge
Posts: 3,786
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2008 14:04:48 GMT
It is Grouchio. Stiv earns one point from me.
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Post by Retro on Jul 1, 2008 14:13:52 GMT
With regards to the colouring job on Rouge Alert.
Robert:
I'm particularly glad you picked up on the consistent theme for the Hill Top Intelligence gang, one of the things that flickered into my head during it's colouring was that we get a lot of very different styles for them. Interior personal, formal Keepers, casual clothed Keepers, the Bounders...as such I decided on two colours. Red and black to be used predominently to identify an individual as a Keeper/whatever else. Varying it slightly to allow for them not all to look the same, but provide a visual remark amongst these crowds.
Also of note, the Bounders left me with a quandry. They are these grim scarred veterans, and somehow the idea of a Redcoat bright gleaming jacket didn't suit in my eyes. But you definitely wrote that they should be ceremonial in design. Enter the idea, when I decided to use darker reds for their kid, like a faded red of a suit long worn in the rigours of battle. The ceremonial aspect by shining up any sections of metal or medals to provide a contrast.
Dunzi I found a joy to colour, probably because I love the character. Although his best stuff is yet to come (I give no secrets) I do love the odd line of absolute Britishness. "Spiffing!" "I didn't realise Robotnik had taken a wife..."
Finally I'd love to thank Kimbo, Stiv and Cal for giving great feedback throughout my debut's progress. Kimbo especially for sending me his in progress pages from before, panel 2's jaded Rouge is an almost exact copy, as it was just so perfect. Mass credits to Kimbo.
Also, thanks to those who appreciated or commented on the artwork. I hope to better it for Part 2.
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jul 1, 2008 15:29:51 GMT
Who else other than the military is going to have huge twin bladed chinooks? It's the first thought that hit my mind. SWAT team?
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