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Post by madhair60 on May 15, 2010 16:45:32 GMT
Sent you a PM, Mambo.
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Post by madhair60 on May 17, 2010 11:14:26 GMT
Still waiting on a response.
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Post by madhair60 on May 19, 2010 20:58:52 GMT
Edit: Was just informed you were in a sporadic sort of internet situation, Mambo - honestly, I had no idea, didn't mean to hassle. In your own time.
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Post by madhair60 on Jun 4, 2010 12:18:28 GMT
Edited out: Sent PMs. I'm doing this your way.
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Post by Tom J on Jun 4, 2010 12:32:04 GMT
This. Speaking down to everyone like you're about to unleash the lawyers or something. For a Mod especially, nothing else makes you look more of a prick. edit: I'm keeping this bit
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Post by Moo on Jul 3, 2010 18:21:49 GMT
I'd just like to say to the moderators that I think their reasons for banning DS (the second and final time) were very dickish, and were a desperate excuse to get rid of him, rather than a valid one. You should be pretty ashamed of yourselves.
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Post by Nam on Jul 3, 2010 19:21:35 GMT
The problem here is that, as far as I can tell, there's a system here for scoring who's in trouble, and who isn't. Yet none of the mods have publicly announced it. From what I can gather, it goes like this:
Break a rule, get a warning, or if it's a severe rule break, strike one, and a weeks ban, as well as a note on your record saying they're on warning one that lasts for three months
Break another rule in those three months, you get strike two, which is a months ban, and a mark on the record that lasts a year.
Break the third rule, and it's an outright ban.
One of the mods can correct this if I'm wrong. Records of strikes and ban expiration dates are kept in a thread hidden in the mod zone.
The rules we're currently being enforced to are being discussed by the mods, on a basis of "collectively we know what's best for the forum." Despite this being a community of people, the mods get to decide what the rules are and what is and isn't a bannable offense.
I once asked Retro why he didn't make rule setting more public, and make the forum more democratic, his reply was something along the lines of "but then you'd get members like [name ommitted] who'd make a mockery of the rules, and try to get through rules that meant they could do what they wanted."
I'm probably going to get in some [censored] for saying all this, not just warning strikes and bans, but also with my moderator girlfriend who at best will give me the cold shoulder for indirectly slandering her and her friends, but damnit I'm getting fed up of this constant circle of "The mods are douches, lets be turds and rebel" followed by "The forum is full of rebelling turds, lets be douches about it."
Surely it makes sense in a community for the whole community to have some say in how it's run, and who runs it, rather than having a sort of semi-tyrranical mod rule "by appointment only". At the very least, the mods need to be accountable, and able to justify why they've done what they've done.
Frankly, this whole situation stinks, and I've been biting my tongue on it for ages, watching how it's all gone down every single time something happened that required the mods to handle things. Every time the same arguments come up, every time people make really good points, every damn time people say there should be changes, but nothing ever actually happens. For once shall we damn well actually sort it?
Now I know this is a minority thing, half the forum at least genuinely have no problem with the rules, or the modding, because there never affected by it, they stick within the rules, never try to annoy others, or piss people off, or push boundaries, and to those I apologize on behalf of everyone else for how much of a colossal crock of [censored] this situation is. But everyone else here, on both sides of the "the mods suck, and so do the boomers" argument, get it together and make some sort of conclusion. It's been a damn year.
If the rules are broken and have loop holes fix them. If there are mods who aren't pulling there weight, have words with them. If there are mods who are acting out of bias and/or prejudices, get shot of them and get some new staff. There's a whole forum full of people who could bring some balance to this, and stop this never ending argument between the "mods are [censored]" faction and the mods.
Cos frankly, both sides are idiots.
[/incoherent rant]
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Post by Retro on Jul 3, 2010 19:55:30 GMT
Considering I'm relatively busy at the given moment. The most I'll say for now is that is not how the mods rules for determining strikes and punishment works at all.
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Post by Matt on Jul 3, 2010 20:49:06 GMT
The problem here is that, as far as I can tell, there's a system here for scoring who's in trouble, and who isn't. Yet none of the mods have publicly announced it. From what I can gather, it goes like this: Break a rule, get a warning, or if it's a severe rule break, strike one, and a weeks ban, as well as a note on your record saying they're on warning one that lasts for three months
Break another rule in those three months, you get strike two, which is a months ban, and a mark on the record that lasts a year.
Break the third rule, and it's an outright ban.One of the mods can correct this if I'm wrong. Records of strikes and ban expiration dates are kept in a thread hidden in the mod zone. The rules we're currently being enforced to are being discussed by the mods, on a basis of "collectively we know what's best for the forum." Despite this being a community of people, the mods get to decide what the rules are and what is and isn't a bannable offense. I once asked Retro why he didn't make rule setting more public, and make the forum more democratic, his reply was something along the lines of "but then you'd get members like [name ommitted] who'd make a mockery of the rules, and try to get through rules that meant they could do what they wanted." I'm probably going to get in some [censored] for saying all this, not just warning strikes and bans, but also with my moderator girlfriend who at best will give me the cold shoulder for indirectly slandering her and her friends, but damnit I'm getting fed up of this constant circle of "The mods are douches, lets be turds and rebel" followed by "The forum is full of rebelling turds, lets be douches about it." Surely it makes sense in a community for the whole community to have some say in how it's run, and who runs it, rather than having a sort of semi-tyrranical mod rule "by appointment only". At the very least, the mods need to be accountable, and able to justify why they've done what they've done. Frankly, this whole situation stinks, and I've been biting my tongue on it for ages, watching how it's all gone down every single time something happened that required the mods to handle things. Every time the same arguments come up, every time people make really good points, every damn time people say there should be changes, but nothing ever actually happens. For once shall we damn well actually sort it? Now I know this is a minority thing, half the forum at least genuinely have no problem with the rules, or the modding, because there never affected by it, they stick within the rules, never try to annoy others, or piss people off, or push boundaries, and to those I apologize on behalf of everyone else for how much of a colossal crock of [censored] this situation is. But everyone else here, on both sides of the "the mods suck, and so do the boomers" argument, get it together and make some sort of conclusion. It's been a damn year. If the rules are broken and have loop holes fix them. If there are mods who aren't pulling there weight, have words with them. If there are mods who are acting out of bias and/or prejudices, get shot of them and get some new staff. There's a whole forum full of people who could bring some balance to this, and stop this never ending argument between the "mods are [censored]" faction and the mods. Cos frankly, both sides are idiots. [/incoherent rant] Nam I respect your opinion, but I have to say, I don't agree. I think the common mistake people make is that there is a mod team, that sit upon high and make lofty decision, have a laugh and think as one with each other and just want to be over the top with rules. To put this into context: I have a 37 hour a week job plus I draw plus part time work teaching drawing i'm currently trying desperately to pass my theory test on tuesday my driving test before the end of august move home see any of my friends be a better boy friend to my long term girl friend save and book to have my first properly holiday in 5 years clean my house get in to shape and work out at least 45 minutes a day... complete my qualification look after my parent be a support for my friend who friend is in critical condition in hospital oh and mod stc i simple don't have time to plan or scheme against other members or even care enough about the forum to turn in into such drama, it's meant to be a fun place to talk about a long dead comic, I talk to your girlfriend once every other week on msn the same with retro, I used to see pete when he lived near me but not for month since he moved, I talk to sin and tikal once in a blue moon. Some people (boomer not just mods) want us to spell out all the rule and make it obvious like a binding legal contract. Some people insist it's common sense and it's a simple judgement calls and idiot could mod a forum and other have various other opinions so sorting it out democratically or just between the mod isn't easy to start off with ,then add that each mod and boomer has a list of the own stuff just as long or longer than mine and really is it any surprise stuff gets done slowly. Now as far as the ob situation goes, it was taken care of by the time I got online, but I was told Ob posted violent rape on the forum, the other mods made a judgment call based on a previous week long ban and a the fact the content was illegal, graphical and breaks a ton of forum rules. Now you might disagree but as far as I see it, no amount of loop holes on technical loop hole can get ob off for that because he a long term member when: chosen one knuckles (banned for a week the banned for ever for trying to coem back two day early) the captain (banned for insulting people on an off forum radio show and no heeding warnings) eggman (banned in 2005 for being young stupid and not that interested in sonic) nickles (made a couple of off colour remarks) even the hogfather (create a sockpuppet and lied to the forum) and a few other members have been perma banned for much much less. I have spent 6 hours writing up, revising, and asking friends to read a forum agreement between all boomer and mods to replace the rule, much less draconian then the current rules, shows clearly mod's responsibilities to you guys, has a clear complaint procedure to help if you think a mods made a wrong call, and such. Before I can take it to you guys though I need feedback from the other mod's so i'm not going behind there back and show we work together, maybe I need to send it to charles as the ediotor of stc may need to now if we change things as much as I prepose, I don't know, and even though I posted it weeks/months ago now i've had no reply nor the time to chase it. and i'm sure the other mod haven't replied cause it sunk to number two on the mod forum and as mod me normally only click on the mod forum when a new issue has appeared, otherwise we don't check it, cause really were just normal members like everyone else.
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Post by Moo on Jul 3, 2010 23:12:10 GMT
I hope you aren't changing the rules to make your decision valid, because as it stands, the rules dont warrent him being banned for posting that. It says it will be deleted, and if reposted, the person will be banned.
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Post by Matt on Jul 4, 2010 0:34:11 GMT
I hope you aren't changing the rules to make your decision valid, because as it stands, the rules dont warrent him being banned for posting that. It says it will be deleted, and if reposted, the person will be banned. like I said I wasn't there when the ban was made, but I see nothing wrong with what the rest of the team decided. You have every right to complain, I am willing to look into this see what the other warning were for see what the content was that was posted, review everything. What I am saying though is from the evidence i've seen the situation is this - ob has been week banned before for something, this would have been a second warning after a previous warning
- ob then posted up a graphic video of violent rape on the forum (again this is what I understand from other mods please correct me if i'm wrong)
- the other mod ask each other if it was a ban worthy offense they all said yes
the is so talk of a loophole in that - while the rules state that on a third warning of sufficient big enough issue permabans should be issued
- another rule contradicts it and states-that if graphic imagery is posted users be given a warning first and the link removed, if the link is put back in it's a ban
- ergo as the link wasn't removed by the mod that made the call ob can't be banned
I think this misses a few point namely the spirt of that rule was meant to be: If a user post something up they might not think it's that bad, we should remove the link to avoid being over the top to people. However if as suggested in the mod thread ob posted a rape video then he'd have known full well it was offensive, there no way that that could be an honest mistake. Plus he broken a whole host of other rules as illegal content is also banned on the forum which rape falls into, as is being deliberately aggressive or posting up content to flame or cause distress. Now as I mentioned in my post above in the mod team that existed before I was mod, a lot of people lot banned for spelling incorrectly, not adding to discussions, or just lying. I a dyslexic received a warning for my unreadable posts. So I think the current mod team banning some one for posting violent rape after two previous warning isn't ott. However like I said I don't know the context of any of this and may have it wrong. I am willing to listen to anyone that wants to defend Ob, raise issues, or make a complaint. I'd rather you PM me, but if you want also post here and I will do my best to reply to your concerns and worries.
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Post by Retro on Jul 4, 2010 1:02:27 GMT
The basic gist of how we had been operating was a three strike system.
Strike 1 - This isn't automatic, as a more informal "warning" to back down might be placed in or a post with dodgy stuff deleted. However if a "first strike" is placed. It basically marks the person on the mod teams radar and remains for one month. Afterwhich the strike is removed permenantly.
Strike 2 - Should, within this month period of the first strike, someone make another breach of the rules. They will be placed here, which remains on record for one year. They will be informed that their next breach will result in a banning. It is at this stage that they really need to clean up their act.
Strike 3/Ban 1 - If it comes to this, a week ban is instated. After it is over, they will be placed back on strike 2.
Ban 2 - If they require further banning. It's a month.
Ban 3 - Permenant.
So basically, normally we'll hand out only minor "Oi, watch it"'s for smaller things. But repeated "small things" or bigger stuff will put people onto the strike system.
There are minor things around that about what sort of thing denotes skipping straight to a second strike or what is said to them and hen etc etc. But it's 2AM. Thats just a rough gist of how it really works. It gives even troublemakers 5 chances to clean up their act.
In this case, with Ob. He failed to take heed of any warnings and was told of each strike every time and told of each ban's recurring penalty every time. Then he went on to post his worst breach of the rules yet the second he came off his second ban. Hence, permenant.
We don't need rape videos on this forum.
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Post by The Tikal who had no Toes on Jul 4, 2010 6:33:33 GMT
We're not out to get DS, Moo, and we weren't desperate to get rid of him. If that were the case, we'd have permabanned him a loooong time ago. I LIKE DS. I thought you knew this. But it doesn't mean that I'm going to let him off the hook if he breaks rules. We've told him various times not to post [censored] like that, and he went and did it anyway. I'm not entirely happy about him being banned, but if we make exceptions for Boomers just cos they're popular or whatever, people will complain and accuse us of playing favourites, and it HAS happened before. And no, I don't think the Boomers are all douches. I could count on one hand the Boomers I actively dislike. If that. I do get frustrated when one minute we're authoritarian and the next we're lax and we never bloody do anything. But I don't hate you all or anything.
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Post by Moo on Jul 4, 2010 11:07:35 GMT
Like I said, as the rules stand, what he did didn't warrant a banning. It should have been removed. Only him being banned if he reposted it.
I dont think you can ban someone for posting that video (linked with warnings no less) in a thread it was appropriate to anyway, the whole thread is pretty much bait for unsuitable videos, anyone who posted a link in there could potentially get warnings. If he posted it in the Random Zone, I'd understand the decision.
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Post by Beeth on Jul 4, 2010 11:16:49 GMT
Mercifully, I wasn't here when this happened. I don't know where it turned up, but I'm hoping it wasn't in any of my threads. I would not be amused if it was.
On another note: Chosen One Knuckles was banned? How come? Not that I wish to dig things up, or anything, it's just news to me (albeit very old news by the looks of things).
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Post by Moo on Jul 4, 2010 11:21:35 GMT
Actually it was in your nightmare thread. And it didnt "happen" as such, no fuss was even made. Indeed both Ob and Retro were posting in there still, before the offending video was apparently noticed.
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 4, 2010 11:22:00 GMT
It was in your "nightmares" thread, where you post things that give you nightmares, which explicitly invites the posting of questionable material. Ob posted something questionable, hid it and posted a loud, obvious warning. Linked, flagged videos of comedically overblown and astonishingly audacious rape are not cool, of course. It shouldn't have been posted, it wasn't appropriate. However, unlinked videos of women getting their fingernails pulled out and lingering on their discomfort and suffering are A-OK. If DS gets banned, Zerolus should get warned. Shouldn't he?
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Post by Beeth on Jul 4, 2010 11:35:32 GMT
Well I did say right at the start "not too NSFW", I expected people to have common sense and understand that meant at least not posting anything considered blatantly offensive and/or illegal. I should go back and make that more clear.]
And no, Zerolus shouldn't get a warning. I discussed it with him afterwards via PM, I'm ultimately fine with what he did post, which was tame in comparison to what he potentially could have uploaded. You only have yourself to blame, madhair, for jumping in with both feet. Like I said on more than one occasion, I did the research first (i.e. written information) before deciding on whether to view anything else from the series. You were offended because you took a gung-ho approach and didn't like what you saw, and no-one forced you to do that.
Edit: Additionally, I do fail to see DS's motives for his posting what he did, especially considering he more or less followed the thread, up to that point, in a way I'd liked and expected. Especially that awesome adventure game he introduced me to at the start. It's just moronic, especially given how long he's frequented the board.
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Post by The Tikal who had no Toes on Jul 4, 2010 12:15:07 GMT
I dont think you can ban someone for posting that video (linked with warnings no less) in a thread it was appropriate to anyway, the whole thread is pretty much bait for unsuitable videos, anyone who posted a link in there could potentially get warnings. If he posted it in the Random Zone, I'd understand the decision. Yeah, but you'd expect people posting in that thread to have some common sense and know there are certain things that shouldn't be on here, warnings or not. I don't want this place becoming like Kittyradio where there were pics that make Rotten.com look like Lolcats. We are reviewing the rules atm. I agree that we do need to be more explicit over stuff that is banned from being posted here. Beeth - Chosenoneknuckles got banned back when Stu was a mod. I can't remember the exact reason but I do know he bandodged very soon after, and Kirichao immediately banned him.
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 4, 2010 12:34:29 GMT
You only have yourself to blame, madhair, for jumping in with both feet. Oh, yeah, sorry for being offended by the defence of child porn. Dick.
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Post by Beeth on Jul 4, 2010 12:40:02 GMT
Like I said, you were the one that looked it up. I never once said I endorsed or dismissed Higurashi, and you know that. My position is completely neutral.
And if you're going to take an attitude with me, I'm saying no more on the matter.
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 4, 2010 12:53:43 GMT
I've not mentioned your position on the show, and you know that. I'm just not sure what you're suggesting I'm to blame for. I reacted to the show after Retro discussed it briefly with Zerolus, you know that. It's still there for all to see. Responding to an existing discussion isn't "diving in with both feet". What would you like to say next?
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Post by Balls on Jul 4, 2010 13:03:26 GMT
Let's remember that one rule Retro put in a while back.
You know, the rule where the mods can make a call and make up a rule if they don't like something.
Can't that work positively too, theoretically?
Okay, the content was inappropriate. It was then removed. Did he really need to be banned for it?
No one was offended or affected, and now one of the most popular faces of the forum is never allowed to post here again for the sake of, essentially, beurocracy. Because that's exactly what it is.
Hearts are so incredibly set on keeping this place kid friendly, even when we haven't had a child on here in half a decade and it ends up with things like this happening. I'm not asking for the swear filter to be taken away or to allow us to post images- which he didn't; massive disclaimer and was behind a link- but it could have been deleted and someone could have said "none of that please".
Instead, he's banned for life. For the sake of a "system" that clearly doesn't work here.
And if you want to enforce it this much, by the freaking book and following the rules this closely and enforcing them thusly, ban yourselves. I could easily dig up several occasions of mods breaking rules, but no one really calls you on it because they're in situations that no one really cares.
So, essentially, you're trying to go by the book, but politely ignoring everything else.
This is a sham and I'm willing to bet a tenner that Retro was the one who banned him.
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Post by Beeth on Jul 4, 2010 13:05:54 GMT
I've not mentioned your position on the show, and you know that. I'm just not sure what you're suggesting I'm to blame for. I reacted to the show after Retro discussed it briefly with Zerolus, you know that. It's still there for all to see. Responding to an existing discussion isn't "diving in with both feet". What would you like to say next? I am only personally concerned you weren't being careful in your actions in viewing the show which led to your strong reactions. I'm sorry if I worded that a bit strongly, you're entitled to your opinions and I'm not going to take that away from you, as they're perfectly valid. It was the strength of your comments that led me to realise you had obviously been upset and offended. I'm certainly not looking to antagonise you or anything, that's the last thing I want. I just want to assist by advising you to be more cautious in your actions if you feel something isn't going to be pleasant viewing.
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Post by madhair60 on Jul 4, 2010 13:11:24 GMT
Fair comment re: caution. The situation is, I was somewhat alarmed by the connotations of the first clip, and when informed that far worse happened, I was linked to something - which shocked me thoroughly, as I wasn't expecting it to be even a fifth as bad as it was. I apologise for calling you a dick. I misinterpreted your original post. I think we both know what happens now.
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