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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Jul 4, 2013 20:43:48 GMT
Cool though these are I hope people don't forgoe reading the actual comics before starting on STC Online. I think it's more likely they'll see them and think "Wow, that looks interesting, I'll read that one!". 'Cause, let's be honest, if you start a comic series that's completed its print run, you start with #1 and it's a good six issues before STC becomes worth reading. This feature says "Look at all these cool things this comic had!" whereas just starting with the comic and reading it sequentially would lead you to initially believe it's a bunch of dull pap with worse art. |
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Post by ShayMay on Jul 4, 2013 20:51:02 GMT
There's also the fact that, well, not many people are going to be able to read STC unless they're willing to download illegal scans.
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Post by modochi on Jul 4, 2013 23:54:05 GMT
There's also the fact that, well, not many people are going to be able to read STC unless they're willing to download illegal scans. That would be me, yes, I'd break the law to read those comics. And to be a lot less of a criminal, I would prefer to buy them rather then steal them of the web if I could, and no, I don't trust Ebay. Something about trading money for stuff with someone I don't know or can speak to at all just doesn't feel right, especially after I lost 55 dollars to a guy who just dropped off the net with a flimsy excuse and a broken promise to refund me. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 5, 2013 9:20:54 GMT
There's also the fact that, well, not many people are going to be able to read STC unless they're willing to download illegal scans. "Legally" they belong to the people who wrote and drew them. A number of them haven't been reticent in posting scans of their own work. Nigel Kitching actively encourages the reading of scans. On a comic that has little chance of returning to print in the foreseeable future, this sort of thing doesn't really matter. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 5, 2013 9:23:12 GMT
There's also the fact that, well, not many people are going to be able to read STC unless they're willing to download illegal scans. That would be me, yes, I'd break the law to read those comics. And to be a lot less of a criminal, I would prefer to buy them rather then steal them of the web if I could, and no, I don't trust Ebay. Something about trading money for stuff with someone I don't know or can speak to at all just doesn't feel right, especially after I lost 55 dollars to a guy who just dropped off the net with a flimsy excuse and a broken promise to refund me. I hope you talked to eBay about that. They have policies to protect your payments. They will either recoup the cost or refund you themselves. (And it's not breaking the law, I don't think.) |
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Post by Matt on Jul 5, 2013 11:02:14 GMT
Tom it's not a massive deal but lease try and use the modify button rather than triple posting.
Also Tom I think the thing with the legality is it's all subjective
many people outside the STC fandom will not know that the original creators are mostly ok with scans and so wouldn't download them.
but we all know that not quite true, the licensed characters used in these stories belong to sega, also I doubt anyone has individually asked every creative credited on STC to ensure each of them is ok with scans.
I know people who have worked on STC-O for years who didn't own an issue, there old issues had been chucked out years nack and the wouldn't dare (due to the fear of committing crime) download the scans.
I know you love STC but for a number of reasons not everyone going to read STC before coming to STC-O and thats who these comic are for to get them up to speed, yeah hopefully it would be great if everyone got to read the originals, but wouldn't you rather have new people jump on and give them an understanding of the original,
or just allow the comic to stagnate, i'm sure thats the opposite of what people want for the comic.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 5, 2013 11:53:52 GMT
but we all know that not quite true, the licensed characters used in these stories belong to sega, also I doubt anyone has individually asked every creative credited on STC to ensure each of them is ok with scans. Sure, but these things were worked on in the hope that they would be read, the artists have been paid all they're ever going to be paid - practically all of them already had their rights infringed when Egmont reprinted everything without a hint of residuals - creators generally welcome the exposure (which is why Stringer and Dobbyn for example have been posting full story scans on their respective blogs). As to the SEGA thing, they have the trademark rather than a copyright on this material, and it's not being traded so its hardly any different from STC Online in that regard. Who was that then? Did that not present a problem when it came to reference. I'm not really sure how encouraging people to read print-STC before web-STC would cause the comic to 'stagnate', at least any more than encouraging them to start reading from issue 224. |
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Post by ShayMay on Jul 5, 2013 12:20:55 GMT
Nah, if people are willing to download the scans, I don't think it's any sort of a stain on their character. I doubt ANYONE cares enough to chase them up on it, as they're making no money from them anyway, and the fact is, it's the only way to read these comics a lot of the time. The problem is, then, that STC-O cannot be seen to endorse or advertise these scans (and we don't): they are definitely illegal. That's why this project is such a great idea. It works in three ways:
1) People who aren't comfortable downloading the scans are now caught up on all the goings-on in the original comic. So now if we say "Commander Brutus" they'll know who we're talking about. They can then start from #241, no sweat.
2) People who are disinterested now have a quick, easy-to-access gateway into the universe. They're getting the best of the comic, and if it interests them, maybe they'll be inclined to track down the original run (whether that be by Captain Plunder's method or eBay we can't say). This is helped hugely by the inclusion of a wide berth of artists, including Jon Gray from Archie, who should help get the word out and attract new readers (not going to mention who else you have to look forward to, but you should look forward to them).
3) It's fun all on its own. I'm having a blast re-reading it.
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Jul 5, 2013 12:28:10 GMT
I'm not really sure how encouraging people to read print-STC before web-STC would cause the comic to 'stagnate', at least any more than encouraging them to start reading from issue 224. That's not what Matt's saying. He's saying that this feature stirs up interest in the original comic and that's great. Without it, the site basically says, in not as many words, "Hey, go read 223 issues of an old comic you probably don't have, don't worry, we'll wait while you catch up". The beauty of this feature on the the online medium is that people can quickly catch up and then read STCO at whatever pace they like, winning them over as a regular STCO fan (with any luck). When this feature is complete, new readers will be up-to-speed within five minutes. It's not always about making people read every single story that preceded what's ongoing. How on Earth would anyone get into, say, Batman or Spider-Man otherwise? I've never read A Death In The Family; I know Jason Todd dies. I've never read One More Day; I know Spidey traded his marriage to let Aunt May live. It's not about reading everything, it's about being made aware of the information therewithin. There's all the time in the world to go back and read the old issues, especially if prospective readers are in favour of scans. What matters for STCO itself, rather than STC continuity in general, is gaining and sustaining a collective fanbase that makes it a worthy endeavour to continue. This feature really ought to have been on the site five years ago, if not more, because, as in real comics, every issue is somebody's first. You can't alienate potential new readers by demanding they read hundreds of old stories. |
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Post by Tom on Jul 5, 2013 12:34:43 GMT
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Jul 5, 2013 12:36:51 GMT
So if it's not illegal, hell, integrate them into the STCO site. Then there's no need for this feature and it'll do tons of good for STCO.
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Post by Chigs! on Jul 5, 2013 13:36:20 GMT
I would feel uncomforatble about having them on STCO's server, but if sombody did put up a site full of scans, I'd have less issue with it being somthing STCO linked people to. As much as the comic is unnofficially official, and as much as these issues rely on the continutity of the old issues, it shouldn't be forgotten that STCO is technically a seperate entity from the print beast, and a fan project at that - I don't think it'd be right for us to host the old comics on the STCO site, even if it is all hunky dory legal  |
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Post by Charles on Jul 5, 2013 16:59:34 GMT
As Shay says, we know pretty much everyone who wants to read the comics can get a scan and half the new readers seeing this feature will likely hunt down scans, but not everyone will want to and we don't want to risk any legal issues/complaints by going "HERE'S SOME SCANS, BOOMERS!!!". (Also, it's a lot more inviting for newbies to have a summary and then, once the STC bug bites, they go looking for scans) We can still have Captain Plunder saying he downloaded scans though!  |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Jul 5, 2013 19:18:59 GMT
I'm pretty sure it is illegal to scan and distribute copyrighted material. It's best to stay on the safe side, unless you want to see a C&D order slapped on places like...er.. Brushes... Punts... Derriere.... and stuff like that.
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Post by modochi on Jul 6, 2013 13:38:33 GMT
That would be me, yes, I'd break the law to read those comics. And to be a lot less of a criminal, I would prefer to buy them rather then steal them of the web if I could, and no, I don't trust Ebay. Something about trading money for stuff with someone I don't know or can speak to at all just doesn't feel right, especially after I lost 55 dollars to a guy who just dropped off the net with a flimsy excuse and a broken promise to refund me. I hope you talked to eBay about that. They have policies to protect your payments. They will either recoup the cost or refund you themselves. (And it's not breaking the law, I don't think.) Sadly, my loss didn't happen over Ebay, but a local version of a similar online auction site in my nation, and while its being looked into it I don't expect to get my money back. And it is breaking the law so long as SEGA or Fleetway/creators of the comics holds the copyrights/trademarks on the comics. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 6, 2013 14:48:21 GMT
I hope you talked to eBay about that. They have policies to protect your payments. They will either recoup the cost or refund you themselves. (And it's not breaking the law, I don't think.) Sadly, my loss didn't happen over Ebay, but a local version of a similar online auction site in my nation, and while its being looked into it I don't expect to get my money back. And it is breaking the law so long as SEGA or Fleetway/creators of the comics holds the copyrights/trademarks on the comics. Except where consent has been given by the copyright holders. Which it has in this case. (SEGA doesn't own copyright on STC.) |
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Post by modochi on Jul 6, 2013 15:53:56 GMT
Sadly, my loss didn't happen over Ebay, but a local version of a similar online auction site in my nation, and while its being looked into it I don't expect to get my money back. And it is breaking the law so long as SEGA or Fleetway/creators of the comics holds the copyrights/trademarks on the comics. Except where consent has been given by the copyright holders. Which it has in this case. (SEGA doesn't own copyright on STC.) Actually, they own the copyrights to several of the characters featured within the comics, but not the stories themselves. Fleetway can't reprint them without permission from SEGA to publish stories containing their characters, likewise you can't download Fleetway comics online legally since SEGA haven't given the go ahead. Copyright law is one big grey area of headaches. Just look at the Pender's case. |
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Post by Tom on Jul 6, 2013 17:18:16 GMT
Except where consent has been given by the copyright holders. Which it has in this case. (SEGA doesn't own copyright on STC.) Actually, they own the copyrights to several of the characters featured within the comics, but not the stories themselves. Fleetway can't reprint them without permission from SEGA to publish stories containing their characters, likewise you can't download Fleetway comics online legally since SEGA haven't given the go ahead. SEGA owns trademarks on the characters' names and likenesses. Not copyrights. So posting scans of those old stories is hardly any different from posting the new ones that appear on STC Online, in principle. Or such is my view at least. Where he appears to be getting his way in spite of what Archie fans used to tell me about character ownership. Seems Archie was as negligent with contracts as Egmont used to be. |
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Jul 6, 2013 19:47:37 GMT
Actually, they own the copyrights to several of the characters featured within the comics, but not the stories themselves. Fleetway can't reprint them without permission from SEGA to publish stories containing their characters, likewise you can't download Fleetway comics online legally since SEGA haven't given the go ahead. SEGA owns trademarks on the characters' names and likenesses. Not copyrights. You'd best send them that memo then since they have "SONIC THE HEDGEHOG characters © SEGA" at the bottom of the official Sonic website. Could a mod split this discussion into another thread if possible? We're making a bit of a mess of Chigs' lovely thread. |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Jul 6, 2013 20:12:06 GMT
SEGA owns trademarks on the characters' names and likenesses. Not copyrights. You'd best send them that memo then since they have "SONIC THE HEDGEHOG characters © SEGA" at the bottom of the official Sonic website. Could a mod split this discussion into another thread if possible? We're making a bit of a mess of Chigs' lovely thread. Agreed and done. And might I add, I have only had a small training course in Intellectual Property laws, but my understanding is that Sega owns the copyright to Sonic, including his appearance. His design is Sega's IP, so anything being distributed with his image on it has to be cleared by Sega. I believe STCO is OK because a) it makes no money and b) it is a fan work so would fall under fair use. Let's not get into too dodgy territory with this discussion here, guys... |
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Post by modochi on Jul 6, 2013 21:03:41 GMT
Actually, they own the copyrights to several of the characters featured within the comics, but not the stories themselves. Fleetway can't reprint them without permission from SEGA to publish stories containing their characters, likewise you can't download Fleetway comics online legally since SEGA haven't given the go ahead. SEGA owns trademarks on the characters' names and likenesses. Not copyrights. So posting scans of those old stories is hardly any different from posting the new ones that appear on STC Online, in principle. Or such is my view at least. Sonic is copyrighted and trademarked as pointed out by L. T. Dangerous by SEGA and Sonicteam. Because, legally you have to copyright something before you can start to trademark it, it's done that way to prevent someone from claiming exclusive trading rights on something unless they own the rights to it in the first place. At lest that's what the documents I got from a lawyer told me when I asked about the copyright rules in regards to one of my OC's I'm thinking of using in a business manner. the only thing stopping me is the freaking price as you have to claim copyrights in every bloody nation on earth one by one. Which means that you can legally download STC in North Korea as I doubt Fleetway/Egmont or Sega claimed copyrights there. :3 Actually, I believe the matter was settled leaving Pender's free to publish the Lara-Su Chronicles, but I doubt it'll be any good since one third to half of the lore draws on SEGA's and Sonicteam's IP, namely the Master Emerald, the Chaos Emeralds, Floating-/Angel-Island and most importantly, Knuckles the Echidna. I believe STCO is OK because a) it makes no money and b) it is a fan work so would fall under fair use. Let's not get into too dodgy territory with this discussion here, guys... It is in grey domain, cause legally, SEGA can't take action against fan artists unless the artist abuses their IP to make money with, heck, they can shut you down if you don't make money off it, but there's a legal issue there, as the law doesn't allow them to cherry pick who to shut down. If they want to shut STC-O down, they have to shut down every fan artist out there as well, every single one. |
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Post by Charles on Jul 6, 2013 22:49:21 GMT
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Post by modochi on Jul 8, 2013 16:56:28 GMT
But if they don't look like rip offs of Knuckles, people won't recognize them and it'll sell less. Plus, it's kind of in a grey area if he can use the design or not. It's sad, but I think this new comic of his will fare just a bit better than his previous comic the lost ones. Now back to legal talks. |
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