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Post by Retro on Apr 30, 2005 19:09:46 GMT
I still felt cheated though, the whole thing with Rose being stuck inside with the Dalek and hearing the EXTERMINATE! *bang!* in the room through the commlink and then her just 'being' alive was a little unexplained.
Not to mention how it just 'didnt' kill everyone when it had the chance. Very un-Dalekish.
Even before it was 'infected' by Rose it seemed a wee bit too chatty for me, again so very unDalekish.
It just didnt feel like a Dalek, it felt like something that was intended to make a modern audience feel 'awww....aint it all just misunderstood the poor thing *hug*'
I hope the Daleks later on in this series dont do this, they better not.
*nuts monitor to emphasise this point*
The way of communicating its terror was amazing with the new death ray effects and swivelling at the waist, flying up the stairs and the PETRIFYING plunger attack.
But it wasted it all, after massacring soldiers for 5 mins it held no terror, it was 'too' emotional for the plot, it became a pathetic little child of neglect, instead of its proper place in historical sci-fi as a deadly great warrior of death!
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JJ
Script Hume
Bit of a hack, really.
Posts: 4,902
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Post by JJ on Apr 30, 2005 19:24:29 GMT
The best episode yet. Absolutely superb. I have to congratulate Robert Frazer once again for another wonderful post, conveying in detail the exact feelings that my own confused mind probably couldn't type or even articulate. The only difference is that I'm not a long-term fan, but I do understand the depth and resonance of this episode. The entire 40 minutes was iconic, superbly written, and with as much pathos and relevance as the best sci-fi of our time. I really liked the Doctor's speech about the Dalek species being the most powerful example of racial cleansing or whatever. Oh, and I liked the 'Dalek-vison' camera technique. Hell, I loved everything about this episode. (edit) Oh, and the Dalek's remind me a bit of the Metallixes. Or vice-versa. Whatever.
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Post by Omega Wants Cake on Apr 30, 2005 19:36:48 GMT
They have destroyed the whole idea of the Daleks, they arent meant to have a 'heart' to feel with. They are chrome plated KILLING MACHINES. For script play and debates with them, thats what Davlos was for, someone to give them a direct character link to. But creating this terrifing icon and then making it into a softy was a BAD BAD BAD move. Never seen "The Evil of the Daleks" then have you? I thought it was great myself. The entire episode kept me gripped, which is rare for me with most Tv shows. Being a big fan of the Cybermen, I was glad to see a few seconds spent on them. I do hope they come back in the second series, along with the Zygons. Not only that, the writers have managed to make the Dalek a true icon of death once again, after their quite frankly embarrassing portrayl in the 80's, it was great to see a side of them we havn't seen before. If this ep had just the Dalek mindlessly killing everyone with a one dimensional personality, I would have declared it an overhyped fanservice, I was gladly proved wrong, I was well impressed with the Daleks cunning and ingenuity, plus the new abilities it was given. I look forward to more of what this series has to offer.
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Post by Retro on Apr 30, 2005 19:54:26 GMT
There are more plotlines can be done besides, Dalek kills everyone *including me* and the current one. What I would have saw as a more satisfying plotline was to have the Dalek like it always was, near unstoppable and chasing them down throughout the whole episode. The feelings it shows DELAYS it, and allows for the now aquired alien weaponry to destroy it. It has all the feeling, interaction and does not lose the deadly machine aspect, as it doesnt actually turn fully like it does into the friendly thing it does in this episode. And yes Omega, the Cybermen cameo was nice. Those guys ruled. What. the. smeg? Who says I wasnt calm?
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Post by Omega Wants Cake on Apr 30, 2005 20:04:35 GMT
. And yes Omega, the Cybermen cameo was nice. Those guys ruled. I found some pretty sweet redesigns of them on this website here.If they do come back, this is how I want them to look. And no winking please, or I'll have to get the hedge trimmers out. <_<
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Post by Hevs on Apr 30, 2005 20:14:14 GMT
sorry bout this but its been niggling away at me. y'know the pig in the ufo? what did it have to do with anything? was it a slitheen cos it couldnt have been an ordinary pig. they cant run on their hindf legs
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Post by supersonicjim on Apr 30, 2005 20:16:37 GMT
They digimodified a normal pig.
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Post by Omega Wants Cake on Apr 30, 2005 20:19:25 GMT
sorry bout this but its been niggling away at me. y'know the pig in the ufo? what did it have to do with anything? was it a slitheen cos it couldnt have been an ordinary pig. they cant run on their hindf legs They explained it as being a Mermaid I think. They took a Pig's head and stuck it on a body or something like that.
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Post by Robert Frazer on Apr 30, 2005 20:45:47 GMT
But don't you see, Retro? The Dalek self-destructing was the entire point. Emotion isn't natural to a Dalek. Rose infected[/u] the Dalek with empathy. Remember when the Dalek confronted Rose before the blast door?
"I sense your fear. A Dal-ek should not sense fe-ar! I have been CON-TAM-I-NAT-ED! WHAT-HAVE-YOU-DONE-TO-ME?"
Isn't that what's most poetic and apposite about the demise of the Dalek? All of that elaborate weaponry pounded out at it was as effective as confetti - yet what is it defeated by? Simple, insidious, debilitating emotion, something that's as common as muck to every living being! Isn't that the true, absolute triumph of versatile, varied humanity over the singular, obsessive alien?
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Post by Retro on Apr 30, 2005 20:55:57 GMT
"BUt I have a much greater force than your power, the force of true love and friendship!"
This line is said in 99% of animes and invitably leads to the baddy going down to the sheer emotional will of the hero. Now it works here, the similar aspects in Dalek did not fit.
This plotline could have worked well as a later on aspect of Daleks, mabye an episode *shots himself for writing issue for some reason* regarding one a Dalek like this.
But for the major return of the Daleks and their new re-encarnation of fear and terror for the new generation, this happening did not fit.
Those people who see it for the first time, see a Dalek that can be beaten by simple emotion, hardly a terror creating enemy.
Personally I think showing this after a large two parter would have been good, as a show down to what a Dalek really is, after what they stand for has been established by having (possible two parter later on instead?) a Dalek much more on the offensive.
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Post by JC on Apr 30, 2005 21:44:46 GMT
I dont know retro there was something I was thinking of when I watched it again about the daleks seemingly pacifist nature.
when it first met the doctor it was filled with rage and hatred and still wanted to kill him.
even after rose initially toutches it the dalek it still has a desire to kill and destroy all humans. It takes out the mechanic guy with the sucker thing, vapourises the security team like its the terminator and begins to hunt down rose, the english guy and then kills the american woman without hesitation on the stairs.
its only until after it sees rose in the area with all the armed guards does it change. But not instantly. rather than targetting rose and killing her it moves towards her, then when it detects the gunfire does it kill the shooting guards with one shot.
When it meets rose by the blast door we start to see new behaviour. It doesnt kill her... its then it says that its been infected by something, her emotions.
You see to the dalek emotions are like a virus, it doesnt react instantly to the emotions its been infected with but and the emotions do not dominate its nature in the lift the dalek still threatens death and rose questions whats the point if everything the dalek knows is gone. it then reacts semi hostile to her (turns and shouts at her) then when it meets the billionaire (forget his name) it advances on him and isnt going to kill him at first because it wants to do something more than that it wants him to feel fear and to feel the pain that it felt.
This is an odd side effect to the emotions its been infected with, now that it knows more emotions than rage and hatred it knows fear and as apart of its ruthless nature it wants the guy to also feel this before it kills him. Its then Rose steaps in to try and stop him from being killed by asking the dalek what it wants. had she not done that would the guy have been left to live? would the woman in the room be alive... would the world be alive?
even when the dalek sees the dr rose has to step between them in order to prevent a fight, the dalek still has its weapons aimed at the doctor only. rose is preventing them from fireing because the both feel something for her.
Then I realised that the dalek not only has a ruthless cold killer personality it also inhabits some of Rose also. the compassion it shows to the billionaire and the woman, and that it doesnt kill Rose or the doctor,
take a look at some of Rose's character so far...
Rose so far has been a peace keeping character, she tends to be looking for the non violent solution and she always tries to keep people alive even the bad guys.
take episode 3, despite been told that unless the girl steps into the portal and possibly die the aliens will take over she still doesnt want the girl to do this, she wants her to live.
then in last weeks episode and the one before that and even in episode 1 we saw her compassion for her family members and her not wanting at first to leave her time and family behind.
Never yet has she wanted the doctor to use leathal force against something.
Now look and listen to what the Dalek says when Rose toutches it. it says something very interesting along the lines of...
"Organic data absorbed! beginning regeneration."
organic data absorbed... so its abosorbed rose... not just human emotions but perhaps apart of Rose herself? Its absorbed part of her personality also. the dalek says its been infected, the emotions and the personality dont take effect instantly but its a slow process.
notice at the end the dalek wants freedom. like Rose, in episode one she revieals how shes tied down to her lower class world. "I've got no qualifications, no job." and how she says she cant leave her boyfriend or her mum which tie down her will for adventure. However through the Doctor she can have the life and freedom she truely wants. this too is passed onto the dalek when it wants freedom, but the dalek knows that its race is gone and it says that "all humans are afraid of him" it knows that it can never be accepted (even the doctor who so far tries to make peace with all life wants it dead) and it knows it can never live with the one thing it hates more than the doctor, emotions. its true freedom unlike Roses desire to live and explore is to finally rest and end its life.
This is where the BBC have opened up a whole new area for the daleks, before daleks were mindless killing machines, it was run away and try to outsmart them. But because now they can abosrb not just energy from people but also their emotions and pieces of their personality we can see almost different characters in the daleks.
With this one we ended with a slightly more compassionate dalek to the start of the episode, but thats because it absorbed a small piece of Rose's personality and nature... So I ask you... what if it were to absord the personality of someone who is like these individuals...
Sudam Hussain Adolf Hitler Charles Manson Myra Hindly (moors murders) Robert Mugavia (the zimbarbway guy)
and the dalek was able to download things... whats to say a dalek cannot upload information into things... like upload a personality to kill and destroy into other daleks.
The daleks would still have the whole spectrum of human emotions, but as demonstrated when the dalek wants the billionare to suffer we could start to see scenes were the daleks begin to tortue humans and not kill. Or imagine a dalek version of a nazi concentration camp were they marvel from both humiliation, abuse, tortue as well as merciless killing.
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Post by Retro on Apr 30, 2005 21:53:17 GMT
Hatter...I actually gave up reading that half way through.
Because Im not going AGAINST what it was, it was a cool idea and it WORKED.
But it did NOT work as an opening episode for a Dalek in a new series ya see guys? Thats what I have been saying all along.
*smacks face that no-one seems to have noticed*
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Post by JC on Apr 30, 2005 21:58:45 GMT
You have to remember though. this series is beleive it or not being aimed at children! thats why they have been getting some recognisable faces to play scary and wierd foes. (one of the living dead in episode 3 was a blue peter presenter)
Also they need to find a balance. this isnt the first dalek episode... but to children it is, throughout this seires they have been educating new viewers and trying to keep happy the old ones.
tonight new viewers learned that the dr has 2 hearts.
But I do implore you to read my analysis of the daleks behaviour, it does have some interesting thoughts.
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Post by Dave on Apr 30, 2005 22:17:22 GMT
With this one we ended with a slightly more compassionate dalek to the start of the episode, but thats because it absorbed a small piece of Rose's personality and nature... So I ask you... what if it were to absord the personality of someone who is like these individuals... Sudam Hussain Adolf Hitler If he downloaded their emotions we'd be screwed. He'd have the knowledge, and the hatred of them. So he'd be able to override the most advanced defence systems in the world. (I promise that made sense in my head) and the dalek was able to download things... whats to say a dalek cannot upload information into things... like upload a personality to kill and destroy into other daleks. So basically you're saying he could rebuild the Daleks and make them the way they were? And, if he wanted to, they could take away his emoticons. What would be cool is if he could do that to a human brain.
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Post by JC on Apr 30, 2005 22:19:58 GMT
I supose he could... but something else which has just struck me now...
since the dalek absorbed emotions it also abosrbed deception....
How do we know the dalek killed itself? Before it died it blew a hole in the roof, whats to say it didnt teleport itself to another location?
It would then be able to build daleks again.
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Post by Dave on Apr 30, 2005 22:25:30 GMT
Human friendly Daleks lol!
Imagine that. Ones that exterminate people to make peace in the galaxy, only making things worse.
Who created the Daleks by the way?
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Post by Omega Wants Cake on Apr 30, 2005 22:33:21 GMT
Who created the Daleks by the way? A real ugly bugger called Davros. >.<
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Post by Dave on Apr 30, 2005 22:39:32 GMT
Did they kill him?
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Post by Sin on May 1, 2005 9:53:03 GMT
One thing still puzzles me. If the Dalek absorbed the Internet then why did he not start saying "omg hi 2 u, a/s/l?? lollol!!11oneone".
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Post by ronson on May 1, 2005 10:09:21 GMT
i thought it was a great episode and certaintly one of the best in the series. I agree with Robert Frazer in that the cgi elevation scenes look a little tacky.
I loved the entrance in the museum where the doctor looks at the cybermans head. the reflection in the glass of the silver head over the doctors face intrigued me for some reason.
apparently in the second series they want to bring back the cybermen. should be interesting to see what they will upgrade it to.
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JJ
Script Hume
Bit of a hack, really.
Posts: 4,902
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Post by JJ on May 1, 2005 14:08:04 GMT
One thing still puzzles me. If the Dalek absorbed the Internet then why did he not start saying "omg hi 2 u, a/s/l?? lollol!!11oneone". "EXTERMIN8! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO THE DALEKS! WAREZ RULEZ!!"
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Post by Retro on May 1, 2005 16:26:39 GMT
"EXTERMIN8! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO THE DALEKS! WAREZ RULEZ!!" *had a good point ready as to why he feels the episode still didnt fit, but this has reduced him into so much juddering and ramming off walls in sheer hysterical laughter that he cannot comment.*
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Post by ronson on May 3, 2005 11:33:05 GMT
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Post by JC on May 3, 2005 15:11:35 GMT
I cant ever get it to work... whats it like? first person? 3rd person?
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Post by Sin on May 3, 2005 20:09:34 GMT
I cant ever get it to work... whats it like? first person? 3rd person? It is a sorta, looking down on shooter with a tilted environment, simular to Sonic 3D (someone must know the proper name for these kinds of games).
It isn't excellent, but it is free so who cares.
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