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Post by The Shad on Oct 15, 2012 9:59:30 GMT
Just got lack 2 yesterday. Haven't played the first one, so I can't compare it. Interesting variation among the starting Pokémon (my man Psyduck is finally getting the respect he deserves), but the grinding, oh dear God the grinding. Trying to go into this as fresh as possible, not looking up gym leaders, or even evolutionary levels.
Team so far:
Oshawott (12) Riolu (12) Sunkern (11) Lillipup (11) Psyduck (10) Purrloin (10)
I like 'em.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Oct 16, 2012 13:35:27 GMT
Okay, so just started on Black 2. Same old, same old so far. I do like the connectivity between it and Dream Radar, though; it's painless, and it's got me a Munna, Sigilyph (spelling?) and Riolu already, along with a few shards and Revives. Also got Genesect so I'm done faffing about until it's time to trade some of the Pokemon from Black over. All this before I've even got my first badge and the C-Gear... Also tried out the Memory Link feature, which led to an extra cutscene. Apparently told by a former Team Plasma grunt, it shows how N released his Pokemon back into the wild and not being able to understand why they don't want to leave him. You know, I still can't help but feel that Pokeballs brainwash their captives, at least on some level (there's me reading too much into these things again). I always found it amusing in Yellow how it took time for Pikachu to warm up to you, and I think that's a concept they ought to explore further.
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Post by Alex on Oct 16, 2012 18:39:40 GMT
Regarding that spoiler: That's just the start of that. Throughout the game you will also get the opportunity to catch all the Pokemon that N released. You will also get given his Zorua by N loyalists in Driftveil city.
Also, for whatever canon there is within the games, it's pretty clear that Pokeballs don't brainwash Pokemon given that you can have a Pokemon not obey you. In universe, despite their abilities, Pokemon are still basically 'just' animals and like any pet, if you're not a horrible [censored] to it, it'll be more than happy with you.
N was always very kind to his Pokemon, even if he disagreed with the entire trainer/pokemon system. No real reason they wouldn't be sad to leave him.
Anywho, I'm floating around Driftveil now. A bit of grind to get the PWT stuff done. A lot of the reason for the perceived extra grind in this game is mostly just because of the variety of Pokemon available early on for the first time. Not only is it more likely to get a full time very quickly, but a lot of these Pokemon have pretty beefy experience curves meaning they need a lot of EXP to level up, even early on. And then there's Pokemon like Swablu from the Dream Radar that are basically millstones around your neck until they're at a much higher level. Won't make that mistake again... (I'm now using my Therian forme Tornadus instead).
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Post by Nam on Oct 16, 2012 20:17:23 GMT
A lot of the reason for the perceived extra grind in this game is mostly just because of the variety of Pokemon available early on for the first time. Not only is it more likely to get a full time very quickly, but a lot of these Pokemon have pretty beefy experience curves meaning they need a lot of EXP to level up, even early on. And then there's Pokemon like Swablu from the Dream Radar that are basically millstones around your neck until they're at a much higher level. Actually, what makes the grind take longer is the [censored]ing awful "Pokemon fighting a lower level pokémon will get less experience with each level they gain" experience system. Which is fine in theory, but combine that with the games nature of not leveling up the Pokémon around you and it causes problems as you find that each level you game makes the amount of Pokemon you need to kill to gain one more level increase even further than it did in the old system, and you're stuck in an area with Pokémon of a much lower level than yourself and you have to endure the grind for even longer. I'm no expert in all technical aspects of Pokémon leveling, but have they actually adjusted the leveling curve of Pokémon from the old system?
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Post by madhair60 on Oct 16, 2012 21:06:18 GMT
Actually, what makes the grind take longer is the [censored]ing awful "Pokemon fighting a lower level pokémon will get less experience with each level they gain" experience system. Which is fine in theory, but combine that with the games nature of not leveling up the Pokémon around you and it causes problems as you find that each level you game makes the amount of Pokemon you need to kill to gain one more level increase even further than it did in the old system, and you're stuck in an area with Pokémon of a much lower level than yourself and you have to endure the grind for even longer. Sorry... maybe I'm missing something but this sounds like you're describing the levelling system in every game ever made?
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Post by Nam on Oct 16, 2012 22:47:41 GMT
No, they changed it in Black and White. It used to be kill a level X monster, it would give you Y experience, whether you were level 1 or level 100.
Now, if you kill a monster, it will award you a different amount of experience based on your own level. So if you send out, for example, a level 5 Pikachu, then swap to a level 50 Charizard to kill a level 30 Ditto, the Pikachu will get something like 300 experience points, while the Charizard will get only 20 experience points.*
So not only do you have to contend with the amount of Exp to get to each level being higher for each consecutive level, but also diminishing returns per level, unless you can always find Pokémon that are always high enough to be worth the time killing, but not too high to completely curb stomp you.
In other words, in Gen V there's another variable to leveling, which means it takes even longer to level, because you can't get to the higher level Pokémon until you beat the thing you're probably grinding levels for.
*Numbers aren't accurate here.
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Post by Alex on Oct 16, 2012 22:53:18 GMT
A lot of the reason for the perceived extra grind in this game is mostly just because of the variety of Pokemon available early on for the first time. Not only is it more likely to get a full time very quickly, but a lot of these Pokemon have pretty beefy experience curves meaning they need a lot of EXP to level up, even early on. And then there's Pokemon like Swablu from the Dream Radar that are basically millstones around your neck until they're at a much higher level. Actually, what makes the grind take longer is the [censored]ing awful "Pokemon fighting a lower level pokémon will get less experience with each level they gain" experience system. Which is fine in theory, but combine that with the games nature of not leveling up the Pokémon around you and it causes problems as you find that each level you game makes the amount of Pokemon you need to kill to gain one more level increase even further than it did in the old system, and you're stuck in an area with Pokémon of a much lower level than yourself and you have to endure the grind for even longer. I'm no expert in all technical aspects of Pokémon leveling, but have they actually adjusted the leveling curve of Pokémon from the old system? You get more experience from trainer battles than wild battles - up to double if the levels are below yours. The point is to get people fighting all the trainers to level up rather than grinding against wild Pokemon forever. A number of trainers will rebattle you as many times as you like (breeders tend to want to battle every time you pass and tend to have Pokemon that give out sizeable amounts of experience) and there'll be at least one for every main route. If anything the grind is slightly lessened by giving you better opportunities for more trainer battles than needing to feel you need to decimate the local wildlife population to proceed.
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Post by ShayMay on Oct 16, 2012 22:53:55 GMT
But you could never really do that anyway. Pokémon has always been unabashedly linear, and with the exception of the post-game in Black and White, there's never really been a huge jump in levels between areas you're supposed to be able to access.
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Post by Nam on Oct 17, 2012 9:51:05 GMT
You get more experience from trainer battles than wild battles - up to double if the levels are below yours. The point is to get people fighting all the trainers to level up rather than grinding against wild Pokemon forever. A number of trainers will rebattle you as many times as you like (breeders tend to want to battle every time you pass and tend to have Pokemon that give out sizeable amounts of experience) and there'll be at least one for every main route. If anything the grind is slightly lessened by giving you better opportunities for more trainer battles than needing to feel you need to decimate the local wildlife population to proceed. Yes, and that's great. Doesn't change the fact that the first one of these isn't found until you get to the third town, and even then only if you go off the beaten track and try to get to the forth town before beating the third gym. Which means that for the first two gyms you still have to grind the old fashioned way, which in this game, for me still meant three hours grinding up levels. I concede about half hour of that is probably my own fault for ditching the starter ASAP, but still the rest made the first three hours of the game unnecessary tutorials and grind. Not a good start at all.
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Post by Alex on Oct 17, 2012 10:06:36 GMT
Ignoring the need to be OCD and keep an entire team at the same level, there really are enough trainers between the first two gyms to get you to the pretty basic levels you need to pass them.
Those ones are made even easier really by the fact people will tell you specifically which Pokemon to use (Riolu and Magnemite) to steamroll through the battles and where to get them. I'm not sure how much more the game can do to help you there short of complete handholding, which given the complaint about the tutorials (and to give them due credit here, for the first time you can basically say no thanks to most of them), you believe there to be too much of anyway...
I -did- need to grind for the Castelia gym in the sewers because I had a full team of experience hungry Pokemon that needed balanced out, but that was the first point it was necessary.
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Post by Alex on Oct 17, 2012 10:09:53 GMT
But you could never really do that anyway. Pokémon has always been unabashedly linear, and with the exception of the post-game in Black and White, there's never really been a huge jump in levels between areas you're supposed to be able to access. Not really true (Johto in particular has a shockingly bad spike at its midpoint and there is a sizeable jump between Victory Road trainers ans the Elite 4 in Sinnoh), but B/W was relatively even and I haven't encountered anything noticable in B/W2 yet.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Oct 17, 2012 16:33:21 GMT
I have to say that I am really struggling level-wise. As one of the aforementioned OCD types I try to pick out a team ASAP and develop them roughly evenly, but there are nowhere near enough trainers so far and the wild Pokemon are too low a level to make grinding viable. It's because of this that I've only got a couple of Pokemon that are above lvl 10 right now, and I haven't even hit the second gym. I swear I've never had this much trouble levelling up my team at such an early point in the game.
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Post by Alex on Oct 17, 2012 19:06:19 GMT
Quell your OCD as much as possible until you get to Castelia City. By then you've got a lot more opportunities to balance out your team. For the first two gyms the priority, really is just to get past them with whatever they tell you to do.
Cut down to 3 members until you get on the boat. You can catch up the rest very easily afterwards. IIRC, you'll get the exp share between the second and third gyms and Prof Juniper will give you a lucky egg if you follow her to the Celestial Tower before the gym match in Milstraiton.
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Post by ShayMay on Oct 17, 2012 19:32:53 GMT
Not really true (Johto in particular has a shockingly bad spike at its midpoint and there is a sizeable jump between Victory Road trainers ans the Elite 4 in Sinnoh), but B/W was relatively even and I haven't encountered anything noticable in B/W2 yet. The level curve in Johto has always been broken, but it's always been underlevelled for me. The problem was that, when leaving Ecruteak, you could choose to go either right or left. There was no point in going right (unless you're like me and try and fight every battle available to you before every Gym), as you couldn't advance the story and you'd have to come back there anyway, but it meant they had to keep the encounters at a relatively low level in case you did decide to go that way first time. By the time you're supposed to go there, you've gotten your sixth Gym badge and they're all like, level 20, so you're stupidly overlevelled. Still, by the time you get to the Lake of Rage there is a bit of a jump, but it feels more like the broken level curve fixing itself. There are jumps in places in the Pokémon games, but the post-game jump of around fifteen levels in Black and White is the most significant one I can think of. I've never needed to grind in Pokémon for the in-game, and only rarely for the post-game (mainly for the optional bosses; Red, etc.) Haven't played B/W2 yet though.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Oct 18, 2012 14:20:13 GMT
Well, I've made it past the second gym. It really helped to catch a Magnemite and get it raised a few levels (especially after I accidentally knocked out (I guess saying "killed" would be incorrect, even though that's what I tend to say out of habit) a couple of Audinos I was trying to capture).
I've gotta say that the movie studio is the best addition I've seen to this series in a long time. I like it's more puzzle-based gameplay and it's always a good laugh to see the results.
Have also synced up my game to Dream World, so I guess everything's back to Square One, as far as that goes...
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Post by Nam on Oct 29, 2012 9:19:19 GMT
unless you're like me and try and fight every battle available to you before every Gym This strategy really pays off in Black 2 and White 2. Cal went through to the Elite Four as quickly as possible, doing only the essential stuff, and came out of Victory Road around level 55-ish and had to grind a couple of them. I, on the other hand took every possible opportunity to deviate from the plot, going and doing every single optional route/cave/surf and waterfall accessible area as soon as I could, and got to the Elite Four with an entire team of level 60's. That's with no Exp Share use, nor any Lucky Egg action, (though I did have a Sigilyph that gained boosted Exp - see spoiler below). Being level 60 put me higher than all of the champions Pokémon and I pretty much walked through it using only a few fresh waters (buy ten of them from a vending machine, you get a medal for it). In other words, it was a lot like the original Black and White, really annoying grinding and linearity until you got access to surf, and then you can just break the level curve.* My Sigilyph was N's. It was a nice touch that, if you actually have one of N's Pokémon in your party when you meet him, he comments on it.
It's also worth noting that Ghetsis is still a [censored], and almost certainly the hardest opponent in the game, not in the least because you'll have no doubt started with a Pokémon good against Ice for the Kyurem fight, only to have that one torn apart by Ghetsis' first battle.
Plasma's role however in this one is much better than the first one. While in the first one they were essentially Peta with stupid outfits and their leader having more sinister plan, in this one Plasma were far more menacing, dropped the pretentions of being noble, and it made the plot a lot more entertaining to watch them actually do something pretty impressive in catching Kyurem and forcing him as a weapon in a flying sailing ship.
Also, Colress was so obviously evil. Even if his motives are essentially "SCIENCE!" it was no surprise that he was with Plasma. Nice battle music mind. *worth noting however, that I did need to grind a bit for Clay, his Excadril, it's just evil. It's probably also worth noting that I got utterly utterly lost in Chargestone Cave, and must've gained three or four unnecessary levels while failing to find the exit - no joke, I got right next to the exit, then turned the wrong way and went over a little jump ledge three times
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Nov 1, 2012 21:19:05 GMT
Going through this veeeeery slowly, so I've only reached Nimbasa Gym at this point. Have I ever told anyone about how much I hate Double Team and any confusion-causing moves, especially when they get spammed constantly? If I could work my will, when someone uses that in the game you should be allowed to stab their eyes out with a rusted grapefruit spoon (yeah, I'm aware Double Team is apparently banned in proper tournaments, I'd still like to see your trainer do that to the CPU; "See, I can cheat too, ya rotten [censored]!"). Still, Nimbasa's a good place to level up, given the daily battles in the stadiums, so getting my team up to scratch for the gym should be less of a faff than it was for the third gym (seriously, most of my guys were very underlevelled, so I had to spend hours grinding the sewers). Team so far is thus (all Pokemon at around the 27 mark): Pignite Lucario Magnemite Munna Cubone Psyduck Also liked that little Easter Egg in Lostlorn Forest where it turns out the guy who chats to you and gives you a TM is actually Zoroark, who I distinctly remember catching in the last game. I've often wondered why more Pokemon aren't shown directly communicating with humans, given that several of them are telepaths and all.
It's just that, sometimes, with the different abilities of the Pokemon taken into account, I think some really creative situations could be invented. For instance, I can picture Cerulean Cave being full of all kinds of freakish stuff, with Mewtwo using his psychic powers to try to confuse you and drive you insane. If you survive that, you've got to prove your worth to him in ways other than beating him to a pulp or stuffing him in a Master Ball (yeah, I know technically Pokemon are referred to as "it", but Mewtwo's always been portrayed as a male in other media so I do the same).
I dunno, it just seems to me that there's always more potential in this universe than Nintendo themselves seem to realise, and it's infuriating when they let slip these tantalising little sidetracks with potential stories of their own to tell. One of the most memorable moments in the series in recent memory to me was when you take Arceus to that mountain in the Sinnoh region in HG/SS and basically witness the creation of the whole universe. It was a spellbinding moment, one that's totally unnecessary, but really helped to deepen and enrich the game universe as a whole. It was also why I enjoyed the last moments of Pokemon Black so much; having a twist at the end and battling for something more meaningful than just the Pokemon Championship felt unbelievably satisfying, and I commended Game Freak for daring to mix things up a bit, with the villains and the ultimate goal of the plot.
I just think that these side-stories are always more interesting than the main plot, and it's an avenue I wish they'd explore further. After all, the most fun moments in the cartoon were the detours that the characters took from their main journey and all the stuff they discovered off the beaten path. Now just forget that I ever used to watch the cartoon. Also, turns out reviews I'd been reading weren't lying; you can use the older DS games with Dream Radar to unlock their corresponding legendary. Just caught Palkia through it, and will be doing the same with Giratina and Lugia. Though I could just as easily trade them across... Also, a quick question regarding Join Avenue. Is it possible to remove stores that you set up there? I ended up putting two of the same store down and now it won't let me get rid of one. Oh, and my Friend Code, if anyone's interested: 0777 2212 4155 EDIT: Have now reached Milstralton Gym, with my team in fighting condition. Having gone back and done all the things I could do now that I had Surf, and heading to Celestial Tower first, the grind for the gym was at an absolute minimum. It helps that those breeders you can have rematches with are absolute godsends. All my team's fully evolved too, except Munna; not sure when would be a safe level to use the Moon Stone. GRAVEDIG EDIT: Finally got round to beating the main game, have beaten Alder and made a start on exploring the other areas. Very disappointed that it all ends with the traditional "Elite 4 and Champion" ending path, after the really refreshing twist of the first B/W. You've just saved the world, but that's not enough; you've got to go feed your ego as well, and apparently achievements aren't recognised in this bizarre civilisation that exists in the Pokemon world unless you beat the Champion as part of your ego-feeding. Yeah yeah, I know I'm over-analysing things, but the Pokemon world doesn't make any sense when you stop to think about it. I did like N's indication that he sees PokeBalls as a form of oppression though, not just for Pokemon but for humans too. Ran across Cresselia, who I was never able to catch all the way back in the D/P/Pl days, but wound up getting so frustrated trying to catch it (especially as it kept healing itself) that I ended up using the Master Ball on it. I have the horrible feeling I've wasted it, but if push comes to shove I could always trade other Legendaries across from the first Black (exceptions being Mesprit and the Regis, which I've never caught before). Still hate how near-impossible it is to catch some Pokemon. I've used False Swipe to knock 'em down to their last point, I've put them to sleep, but none of it works unless I end up wasting all of my PokeBalls. I really feel like nothing short of sacrificing a goat to the Elder Gods does the trick.
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Post by ShayMay on Dec 18, 2012 21:36:12 GMT
Easiest way to capture Pokémon: wait until night, red health, sleep, Dusk Balls. It's not a guaranteed easy time, but it's a damn sight more effective than Ultra Balls.
Asked for Black 2 for Christmas, so that should be fun.
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Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Dec 19, 2012 9:18:47 GMT
Thanks, but it doesn't really matter now. All the post-game stuff's wrapped up, and I've caught every Legendary that I can. Since I don't know anybody near me who has White 2 though I can't get the other two Regis (Ice and Gigas), which is a pain in the posterior, to say the least.
Guess there's nothing else for it now but back to EV training and possible shard hunting.
Also, was it just me or was the jump in difficulty to post-game really big this time around?
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Post by Ringo (2015 Edition) on Dec 27, 2012 13:53:46 GMT
EDITED POST
Took me 3 tries to beat Burgh last night, finally beating him at 4 minutes past 1 this morning. I am in Nimbasa City now, preparing myself for the road ahead.
My team thus far:
Dewott - LV. 27 Magnemite - LV. 20 Sandshrew - LV. 19 Magby - LV. 18 Riolu - LV. 12 Purrloin - LV. 11
I have no idea when Magby evolves into Magmar, but I'm bound to run into a stronger Fire-type later.
I've added you, Studio, and my friend code is 3483 1371 5647 if anyone is interested.
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 8, 2013 11:36:59 GMT
To everyone who said it was going to be Generation III remakes: suck it.
Generation VI revealed: Pokémon X and Y.
I'm trying to remain optimistic, but... egh. This just looks like they've taken the 2D games and replaced the sprites with 3D models. I was hoping for something a bit more unique and dynamic. It doesn't help that those starters are doing nothing for me so far.
Still, those legendaries look fantastic.
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Post by Beeth on Jan 8, 2013 16:43:14 GMT
# I will tryyyyyyyy, to fix Mew.... #
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Post by ShayMay on Jan 8, 2013 16:45:55 GMT
I would have gone for something involving Pikachu going Super Saiyan in the inevitable deluxe version, myself.
Alternatively, "What version are you getting?" "Y." "Wynaut!"
Speaking of Poooooookémon...
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Post by Ringo (2015 Edition) on Jan 8, 2013 18:26:07 GMT
Wow, just wow. Pokemon X and Y, Gen VI is almost upon us. Just gotta get the 9-month gap out of the way before we can buy either game and test the [censored] out of it.
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Post by Hevs on Jan 9, 2013 11:33:00 GMT
I know I'll buy this, it's inevitable. It's a Pokemon game, but I should really start paying attention to the fact that with recent generations I grind to a state of doing nothing very soon after defeating the Elite Four. Well, maybe that's unfair. White 2 has actually held me for quite a while after the main quest, but I'd like a bit more time to really finish it before the next generation comes out.
Wonder what Generation VII will be called - r and θ?
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