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Post by redmenace on Feb 23, 2009 17:43:35 GMT
a character who vaguely looks like Sonic and another one who looks like Tails To be serious for a minute, though - "original plot"? There was no "original plot" to work from! Considering both were released prior to S3K, AOSTH and SatAM were about as decent a Sonic cartoon you could realistically expect for the time. Yes. the only plot there was involved butt kicking between SOnic and Eggman with Tails showing up right after them. AoSTH explored this, in the most retarded way sometimes but they kept faifthful to this. Even when characters that were made up showed up, they didn't hogged the spotlight and the conclusion was always the same, Sonic VS Robotnik. Princesses, castles, robotization (which is ludicrous), no. There's nothing inclusive in Sonic games and that. That lame plot and those lame characters were never needed and have nothing to do with the franchise. The show wasn't about Sonic, it was Princess Sally and the Freedom Fighters (even the VHS covers give the same importance of made up characters and Sonic). That's not right. Kids who played the game were there for Sonic and Robtonik. Kids who came across the show by chance need to be involved in Sonic and Robotnik so they will play the games, not the princess and the castle and the throne of acorn which was never mentioned. That was why the show was made, to establish Sonic and his fight with Robotnik in the children's hearts, not the princess, not the throne, wizards (what?) not the other characters that were given the same importance... There's a difference and that's why I say SatAM is an insult to the franchise. It doesn't focus on it's core, it shifts it to suit the show's writers fantasies because quite frankly, those characters and that setting is nothing more but personal avatars of them, self-fulfilment at it's best because they were never needed, as AoSTH proves it. Sonic Underground did the exacly same thing. The show was about the triplets, not Sonic. It's still an insult. Sonic X has both ways and it's still annoying sometimes, but not an insult because Sonic is still the star most of the time. AoSTH isn't an insult either. That's why I say SatAM had a character which resembled Sonic beccause it doesn't strike as him, at all. About the darkness of the show... right... Tell me one thing that was hard to swallow. Characters were always saved in the end of the day. There's nothing bad on the show, at all. Maybe back then there "was" because we were kids but looking back, no. I remember I was pretty scared at the fact that Manik from Sonic Underground was stolen from the doorstep his mother left him and was raised by another person to be a burglar. Queen Alena (was that her name) is missing, the triplets fin dout that they have a mother that is missing and that they have to find her and release Mobius from Robotnik. That's "darkness" like SatAM had but everyone loathes that show and says it has nothing to do with Sonic. Well castles and princesses, wizards and the like don't either. I kind of like Sonic Underground (although it's still an insult) because Manic and Sonia are good characters. SatAM doesn't have that. The only character I find mildly funny is Antoine, just because he kind of reminds me of Tails in STC. The only episodes I midly enjoyed on SatAM were those that made Sonic and Eggman and their fight the centre of it because that's the way it's supposed to be. It doesn't mind if it's silly or not.
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Post by Ellie on Feb 23, 2009 18:35:13 GMT
Personally, I think Sonic Underground was the best of the lot - ignoring the cheesy song every episode thing. It took SatAM's plot-weaving and character growth and mixed in a bit of AoSTH humour and slapstick too. Not to mention it did away with all the SatAM characters, had Knuckles and an awesome Sean Connery impersonator for a grandfather. Sure the downside was the random siblings - but Manic was actually a pretty good character, and Sonia isn't that far removed from our very own Amy... I have to agree with you, I also think Sonic underground was the best cartoon of the three. In fact its my favourite cartoon of the four if you're counting sonic x, although the second series looked fantastic but I have yet to obtain a japanese version of it due to it not being released, though its been a while since I last checked, so I had to get it in French, heh, but it seemed much better. But back on Sonic underground, cheesy songs are forgiven when you actually sit and watch the series, it was fun, well written, it had Knuckles in it which was a bonus, though a shame we didn't see more of him, and Manic was a great character, in face I always thought he was cooler than the way sonic was portrayed in that particular cartoon a lot of the time. Not so keen on Alena, but as we saw so little of her she never got much of a chance to annoy me. I was delighted when this show turned up, years after AOSTH finished so it also holds fond memories for me. Going away from the actual series though, I thought the way sonic was portrayed in the 'movie', I use that term loosly due to its length of an hour, was the best cartoon Sonic. And he had the best voice to, please bare in mind I'm going on the Japanese version here, I actaully sat through that dub once and spent the hour cringing. I prefer his voice there to the Japanese voice that has been used since SA. I was disappointed it wasn't longer, and they only did the one story, becasue with the acception of Sara, I really thought it was the best cartoon adaptation of sonic.
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Post by Pete on Feb 23, 2009 18:59:17 GMT
@ Redmenace: To say that Adventures was developed with the games in mind is idiotic. The only one I'd call anywhere near an adaptation is the Spinball Fortress one, based (presumably) on Sonic Spinball. And it wasn't all Sonic Vs Robotnik - a lot of the time is was about the villain or robot of the week. To mention that robotization in SatAM is "ludicrous" baffles me. If anything, that's far closer to the games of Robotnik trapping animals. Making the process permanent is a much better, and probably more chilling interpretation on a limited story. With Uncle Chuck and Muttski being Robotisised, it gives the story more depth and a personal reason for Sonic to fight against Robotnik. I think this is one of the "darker" story elements. No, kids bought the games purely because of Sonic, and the massive promotional push Sega were giving him. SatAM still gave you Sonic running fast, saving the day against Robotnik and his guards, but through in these extra characters to fill the gaps. WHAT?! The core of the games are about running fast, smashing Robots and defeating Robotnik. That's what SatAM did! If anything, I'd say that Adventures was further from the mark when comparing it to the games (Sonic dressing up, all the characters acting like it was a Looney Tunes cartoon). The games consist of Robotnik attempting to take over the world, whereas SatAM goes with the premise that he's already done it. So what? If that were the case, and the inhabitants of the planet aren't all idiots, don't you think they'd attempt to do something about it? Of course they would. Also, how can you say that the characters are "personal avatars"? What are you basing this on exactly? The loss of Uncle Chuck and Muttski, the fact that it takes two season to actually beat the main bad guy (instead of at the end of every episode), the alluded death of the king/ Sally's father... I'm sure an old Freedom Fighter called Cat deliberately had himself caught to save the others, and was robotisised. In Blast to the Past[\url], there are two Freedom Fighters that are caught... There are moments, you just have to look for them.
Finally, why do you call everything an insult? It's as if you take great, personal anger at the very existence of anything other than Adventures. THEY'RE CARTOON SERIES' ABOUT A BLUE HEDGEHOG! Enjoy them for what they are, or don't watch them at all, instead of making it personal.
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Post by Charles on Feb 24, 2009 17:39:01 GMT
I also think Sonic underground was the best cartoon of the three. It's pretty underrated, really. And they gave us the first Mobian sponge.
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Post by Ellie on Feb 25, 2009 17:36:05 GMT
I also think Sonic underground was the best cartoon of the three. It's pretty underrated, really. And they gave us the first Mobian sponge. Yeah, I think a lot of people heard the songs and immediatly judged without giving the show a chance. They are dire, we all admit it, but the cartoon itself is great fun.
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Post by redmenace on Feb 28, 2009 22:41:36 GMT
@ Redmenace: To say that Adventures was developed with the games in mind is idiotic. The only one I'd call anywhere near an adaptation is the Spinball Fortress one, based (presumably) on Sonic Spinball. And it wasn't all Sonic Vs Robotnik - a lot of the time is was about the villain or robot of the week. To mention that robotization in SatAM is "ludicrous" baffles me. If anything, that's far closer to the games of Robotnik trapping animals. Making the process permanent is a much better, and probably more chilling interpretation on a limited story. With Uncle Chuck and Muttski being Robotisised, it gives the story more depth and a personal reason for Sonic to fight against Robotnik. I think this is one of the "darker" story elements. No, kids bought the games purely because of Sonic, and the massive promotional push Sega were giving him. SatAM still gave you Sonic running fast, saving the day against Robotnik and his guards, but through in these extra characters to fill the gaps. WHAT?! The core of the games are about running fast, smashing Robots and defeating Robotnik. That's what SatAM did! If anything, I'd say that Adventures was further from the mark when comparing it to the games (Sonic dressing up, all the characters acting like it was a Looney Tunes cartoon). The games consist of Robotnik attempting to take over the world, whereas SatAM goes with the premise that he's already done it. So what? If that were the case, and the inhabitants of the planet aren't all idiots, don't you think they'd attempt to do something about it? Of course they would. Also, how can you say that the characters are "personal avatars"? What are you basing this on exactly? The loss of Uncle Chuck and Muttski, the fact that it takes two season to actually beat the main bad guy (instead of at the end of every episode), the alluded death of the king/ Sally's father... I'm sure an old Freedom Fighter called Cat deliberately had himself caught to save the others, and was robotisised. In Blast to the Past[\url], there are two Freedom Fighters that are caught... There are moments, you just have to look for them.
Finally, why do you call everything an insult? It's as if you take great, personal anger at the very existence of anything other than Adventures. THEY'RE CARTOON SERIES' ABOUT A BLUE HEDGEHOG! Enjoy them for what they are, or don't watch them at all, instead of making it personal.It stuck more closely because it was Sonic-Tails against Robotnik and two minions you recognized from the games. The storyline is wacked and has nothing to do with the original in both cartoons. The Robotization always [censored] me off, it makes no sense whatsoever. Robotnik made Metal Sonic from only machines and he was the best there was, why would he robotize animal creatures anyway, it doesn't help anything! Progressively getting weak and dying due to loss of energy inside of those robots while not being able to do anything about it is a much darker concept if they were looking for it then. Desperation as it's best. True that the games were Sonic smashing robtos around and kicking Robotnick. It wasn't about princesses, castles and an endless cast of characters that weren't satisfied in being side-characters, they had to go and be as important as Sonic. THat's not what the games were. I was there to see Sonic and Robotnik, not ocs. Adventures had them too, but they never had the same importance. Adventures proved there was no need to bring these characters to fill the holes at all. Filling with pincesses and castles and a lost kingdom wasn't needed either. I see no wrong about Robotnik having control of the world however. Probably the ONLY thing I liked in SatAM. The characters being author avatars... why would you pick a story and break the core of it, the relantionship of Sonic and Robotnik and fill it with unecessary characters? It's funny, someone does this in a fanfiction and everyone screams automatically what it is without a doubt. It's complete wish fullfilment, it's Mary Sues, it's author's avatars. I doubt to see where these moments are any dark. They're all with secondary characters, canon fodder. It's like saying Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was a bloodbath, when everyone who died had no significance whatsoever. I watched them when I was younger and I hated them, I hated that my favourite character had been reduced to that. That takes a toll on a kid.
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Post by Pete on Feb 28, 2009 23:31:43 GMT
You say that Adventures is closer to the games, but I feel that they're more akin to Tom and Jerry, Speedy Gonzales, or Road Runner, in which there's someone/thing that's higher up in the food chain being beaten by something lower. Robotnik is the comic foil for Sonic, and that's about it. There's Pseudo Sonic, which Robotnik's grand scheme is to have a robot double that can, and I quote, "duplicate Sonic's stunts, and Sonic's speeds". However, instead of using this creation to go toe to toe with him, Robotnik plans to ruin Sonic's reputation. Now, I believe STC has done this well, as they have spaced this out over years of issues, and the consequences are much higher. In AoSTH, it just seems laughable. WHICH IS THE POINT. SatAM is more about drama, and has more developed characters than arguably any other Sonic cartoon. Yes, the games weren't about princesses and castles, but it wasn't about Scratch and Grounder, or Sonic dressing up in a million different costumes either. I disagree. This was an integral part of the SatAM universe. Even in the opening, the city has white walls, fountains, trees, and is altogether pleasant. It gives the impression that this kingdom is at peace with it's people and the planet. By contrast, once Robotropolis is built, all that is lost, and a dictator takes charge. Adventures, however, only seems to have random towns placed in the middle of nowhere, each with a different theme (the Wild West-themed episode comes to mind). They included other characters because otherwise it would basically boil down to: *Robotnik hatches a plan *Sonic's relaxing *Robotnik unleashes plan *Sonic saves the day, and Robotnik flies into the distance Now, although this is the staple for many stories (not just related to Sonic, but in general), the added characters add more depth and points of view for a story. For instance, what happens elsewhere when Sonic's battling Robotnik? Cut to the Freedom Fighters. And to call all the characters Mary Sues is unfair. Yes, they've all had to be rescued at some point, but then so has Sonic by these other characters. Other than Antoine and Tails, they've all had they're uses in the fight against Robotnik. Okay, so let's go and kill Knuckles, Tails, Amy, Cream, Shadow and Blaze. It's fine, they won't be missed because they're secondary characters. So long as Robotnik and Sonic continue to fight it out, then the series can continue, because it's the closest to the games. And by the way, if you're saying that SatAM actually took a phycological effect of you, then you need to take a step back.
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Post by Charles on Feb 28, 2009 23:41:38 GMT
Okay, so let's go and kill Knuckles, Tails, Amy, Cream, Shadow and Blaze. Two down...
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Post by Pete on Mar 1, 2009 0:25:14 GMT
I always knew you were out to destroy the franchise, Charles...
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Post by Charles on Mar 1, 2009 2:31:01 GMT
Don't look at me, Ed wrote those scripts! Be glad he never got around to Cream...
(Or "be sad" depending on what you think of Cream. Probably is "be sad" for most people...)
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Post by Awdures on Mar 3, 2009 23:03:03 GMT
I remember when AoSth switch to SatAM without warning on channel 4 I was very confused that day! I actually didn't much like SatAM at first, probably because of having it sprung on me! It grew on me. I haven't ever actually seen Sonic Underground. Reading this thread I wonder if I'm missing something.
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GagaMan
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Post by GagaMan on Mar 4, 2009 0:33:00 GMT
I remember when AoSth switch to SatAM without warning on channel 4 I was very confused that day! I actually didn't much like SatAM at first, probably because of having it sprung on me! It grew on me. I haven't ever actually seen Sonic Underground. Reading this thread I wonder if I'm missing something. Gah, I remember that! The satellite channel that showed the Sonic cartoons would do the same exact thing too. The opening would be SATAM, the episode AOSTH and the credits SATAM. What the hell? As for Underground? You're not missing a thing. It was [censored].
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GagaMan
New Boomer
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Post by GagaMan on Mar 4, 2009 0:55:06 GMT
TWO POSTS IN A ROW WAAAH. Only vaguely on-topic, but look what arrived in the post this morning.. An original painting of Dr.Robotnik by Milton Knight, who worked on AOSTH and created that Robotnik's design. He also worked on Twisted tales of Felix the cat and Cool World.
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Post by James2001 on Mar 4, 2009 10:56:57 GMT
As for Underground? You're not missing a thing. It was [censored]. I don't think that's fair recently- underneath it all there's actually quite a good show with a reasonable story. The problem is they ruined it with the whole band thing and the musical interludes every episode- I don't know why they did that as there's no need for it and the show would have worked much better without it.
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GagaMan
New Boomer
No relation to Lady Gaga.
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Post by GagaMan on Mar 4, 2009 11:35:48 GMT
Yeah, but even without the music and band stuff it was like a poor man's SATAM with that overs-ped up footage thing I hate so much in modern cartoons. I don't know if you know what I mean, but I notice it most when the camera pans, it's like it's running at 60fps and looks odd. Also the complete re-writing of Sonic history as a prince with a brother and sister was a bit silly, and those two henchmen characters (who looked like Wile E. Coyote and an orange blanka) were crap. I think the only episode I vaugely enjoyed was the one with Knuckles in it.
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Post by Alex on Mar 4, 2009 20:01:13 GMT
overs-ped up footage thing I hate so much in modern cartoons. I don't know if you know what I mean, but I notice it most when the camera pans, it's like it's running at 60fps and looks odd. I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean that's a quirk of Sonic Underground being an entirely digitally animated cartoon (one of the earliest). Obviously being something that had to be quickly and cheaply made means there are some quirks in that. I thought the animation in it was perfectly fine though. I also don't know how you can seriously bring up a point "rewriting Sonic history" when the Sonic Canon as a whole is a mess of different histories and not a single facet of Sonic's multimedia franchise has a solid cross-platform canon to even begin 'rewriting'. It was a different and new approach on the character - the fact that it was inspired by and followed SatAM simply means there were a number of similarities between the two. And how can ANYONE hate Sleet and Dingo? They're the 'modern day' Scratch and Grounder AND Sleet was voiced by The Brain of Pinky and The Brain. Easily the most entertaining bad guys of any of the Sonic cartoons.
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GagaMan
New Boomer
No relation to Lady Gaga.
Posts: 48
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Post by GagaMan on Mar 5, 2009 13:32:59 GMT
And how can ANYONE hate Sleet and Dingo? They're the 'modern day' Scratch and Grounder AND Sleet was voiced by The Brain of Pinky and The Brain. Easily the most entertaining bad guys of any of the Sonic cartoons. Now this is just a pure lie. They weren't funny. I don't mind cartoons tinkering with Sonic a bit ala SATAM, but making him a prince seraching for his mother was a bit silly, to be honest. Nothing about the show really appealed to me in the slightest, that's all. I think I'd rather even watch Sonic X over it.
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Post by obsidian on Mar 5, 2009 13:49:17 GMT
While I am inclined to agree with Aaron on every front here for once (which would make a change from the usual routine of me and him RAGING at each other about how totally wrong the other is) but I'm too busy being CONSUMED WITH VITRIOLIC LOATHING at his ownership of that Knight beauty. You [censored]. And there was nothing good about Sleet and Dingo. One of them being voiced by a good VA doesn't change that he's a [censored]ing [censored]pile character.
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Post by Ellie on Mar 5, 2009 18:20:51 GMT
The story was a bit silly, and the songs were terrible, yes, but somehow it still made an excellent cartoon which was entertaining, lots of fun, very amusing, and Manic made up for any not so great characters because he was a fantastic character.
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Post by obsidian on Mar 6, 2009 12:51:57 GMT
No he wasn't.
CLOSE THREAD, I HAVE WON WITH WIT AND SUCH
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Post by madhair60 on Mar 6, 2009 13:26:09 GMT
This thread is what you see when they take off the life support.
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Post by obsidian on Mar 7, 2009 13:49:46 GMT
Hell is people who like Sonic Underground.
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Post by madhair60 on Mar 7, 2009 17:53:27 GMT
Apart from the theme song, which is blinding
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Post by obsidian on Mar 8, 2009 21:19:40 GMT
No it's not. We are now enemies etc
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Post by madhair60 on Mar 8, 2009 22:40:38 GMT
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
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