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Post by ShayMay on May 19, 2013 13:23:42 GMT
Matt Smith and Moffat are both almost certainly out the door next year, so the anniversary will likely build up this idea further and it'll be finally played out in the next series. What makes you think that? I don't think the Doctor used up a regeneration after being shot by a Dalek; the poison he was given in Let's Kill Hitler was specifically designed to stop his regeneration. I could be wrong on that.
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Post by Knuckles on May 19, 2013 13:39:42 GMT
She also mentions she saw "all 11" of The Doctor's faces which is strange as there should be more surely? All of the faces that haven't happened yet. Firstly, she clearly didn't see all of them anyway, as she never saw the "lost" Doctor (so however she was strewn across his timeline, there were clearly restrictions). Secondly, an extra regeneration makes Matt Smith's the 12th Doctor, and Tennant used up one of his regenerations after being shot by a Dalek (and Moffat set this up as being a definitive use of a genuine chance to regenerate by making River give up all of hers to revive the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler), making this Doctor the last regeneration (this is the biggest deal with there being one extra regeneration in the timeline) as far as existing canon goes. We can also see that the TARDIS the Doctor dies with, is the current incarnation. Essentially, Matt Smith is being set up as the final incarnation of the Doctor, presumably to make a bigger story out of how he manages to regenerate again. And I can dig that. If Tennant can get a bombastic farewell, given how great Smith has been at the job (it was genuinely heartbreaking to watch him being upset at learning about Trenzalore at the start of the episode), I'd like to hope that they give him as big a farewell as that, too. Moffat said this episode would begin to reveal where his run on Doctor Who has been leading to the entire time, and between the Doctor writing himself out of history, officially 'dying', and there being an extra regeneration in the total count, it seems to me that the only place all of this is leading to is essentially a 'reboot'. Matt Smith and Moffat are both almost certainly out the door next year, so the anniversary will likely build up this idea further and it'll be finally played out in the next series. I always wondered about the Dalek shooting regeneration and think I posted as such on here a while back, but it was explained as he had a part of his body (an extra arm?) so could focus part of his regeneration energy in to that so didn't count or something. But as I said, it was a wonder of mine so if they do make this the final regeneration, as you've justified how they can, then that's amazing and gets me all excited. Except isn't Matt Smith essentially The Valeyard then? With him jumping in to his own timestream there's logic to suggest he could become The Valeyard. I would still like there to be more justification to his actions, due to the fact Clara shouldn't exist and a bit more of a conclusion to The Great Intelligence jumping in to the timestream. But that explanation you gave makes sense and is very clever regarding the absence of future Doctors.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 13:45:21 GMT
Matt Smith has said that as much as he loves doing the show, it's very intensive and he can't keep it up forever. He's already moving on to doing movie work in America, so he's definitely coming to an end of his run. He's intimated that it would be "sooner rather than later", and it does seem that they're slowly building to an exit in the next year or so. (I'd also imagine that Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill no longer being part of the show may play a part in this).
Moffat was recently joined by a new executive producer, who will be working on the next series, and there have been rumours that he's been testing out Chibnall and Gatiss for replacing him (who both ended up with multiple episodes in this series). He's also expressed frustration at the schedule Doctor Who demands, and that he'd like to be able to do more work like Sherlock.
They're both signed on for at least one more series, but I wouldn't consider it too likely that they'll return after that.
As for the poison, it may have been intended to stop his regeneration, but we have no evidence that his lack of regeneration was because of it. Similarly, when we see him being "shot during his regeneration", that was actually a robotic version of him putting on a show. The fact he wouldn't have any more regenerations left is essentially knowledge only he would have.
That all assumes they stick to the 13 regenerations rule, and that Tennant doubling himself the way he did does count as using up a regeneration (again, the way Moffat demonstrated River using up hers does seem to indicate that it does), and really, they can just blindly ignore both of those things and carry on regardless if they choose to. I'm just positing a theory in the event they do not, and this really is where they're placing Matt Smith in the timeline of the Doctor - as essentially the 'last'. Presumably so as to go to Moffat's favourite trope and paradox the [censored] out of it to get around it.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 14:04:02 GMT
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on May 19, 2013 14:07:24 GMT
That all assumes they stick to the 13 regenerations rule You mean the one that's had the piss taken out of it at least twice since 2005? They're never going to address it, he'll just keep regenerating. Really no idea where you're pulling the idea of a reboot from, sorry. What on Earth point would that serve? There's nothing they can do in a reboot they can't do by just ignoring the 12 regenerations limit that was only thought up because, realistically, the producers back then didn't think 50 years was an option.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 14:21:59 GMT
To clarify, by reboot, I don't mean "start over completely ala Star Trek 2009", I mean basically just continuing what they've already set up. A 'fresh start' for the Doctor, where all his enemies don't already know of him, where he can't make grandiose speeches like that at Stonehenge or end up using his friends as weapons ala A Good Man Goes To War, and where he can put the past of the Time War behind him (something he's not been able to fully do since the series' revival, and it's probable that keeping Hurt's Doctor a locked up secret is a big part of why - so addressing it in the anniversary may finally get him past it).
And of course, dealing with the whole 13 regenerations thing that they have otherwise joked about or plain ignored, by just paradoxing around it and setting the Doctor off on a course to regenerate as much as he likes for the next 50 years.
Much of the puzzle pieces are already there, they just need to really do something with them.
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Post by Lost Mercenary on May 19, 2013 18:43:56 GMT
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Post by Supermorff on May 19, 2013 19:18:57 GMT
Yeah, that seemed to be heavily hinted.
But... if Matt Smith is actually the last regeneration using the logic presented previously in this thread, and the Valeyard was created somewhere between his 12th and 13th regenerations... and the Doctor's 12th regeneration (as described above) was used to create the David Tennant clone that went to live in the alternate reality (and was described in his one appearance as quite dark)... could David Tennant be playing the Valeyard?
EDIT: This theorising is all coming out of this thread, by the way, not the episode itself. My impression from the episode itself (particularly the Great Intelligence saying that the Doctor will get darker before the end of his life), was that Matt Smith would regenerate into John Hurt at some point.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 19:35:14 GMT
Matt Smith knowing and recognising John Hurt wouldn't make much sense if he was a future incarnation. The Doctor's met his future self a number of times now, and doesn't recognise himself any of those times. I know it's a time travel show, so thing can get wibbly wobbly, but they were pretty definitely talking about the Doctor's past actions in how that incarnation of him broke that promise.
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Post by Lost Mercenary on May 19, 2013 19:39:17 GMT
Yeah, that seemed to be heavily hinted. But... if Matt Smith is actually the last regeneration using the logic presented previously in this thread, and the Valeyard was created somewhere between his 12th and 13th regenerations... and the Doctor's 12th regeneration (as described above) was used to create the David Tennant clone that went to live in the alternate reality (and was described in his one appearance as quite dark)... could David Tennant be playing the Valeyard? EDIT: This theorising is all coming out of this thread, by the way, not the episode itself. My impression from the episode itself (particularly the Great Intelligence saying that the Doctor will get darker before the end of his life), was that Matt Smith would regenerate into John Hurt at some point. I believe the comic The Forgotten brought up Tennant's twin being the Valeyard but the Doctor himself called bull**** on it that it couldn't have been possible. As for which regeneration the Doctor is currently up to it could go either way. Since we've had no confirmation on whether Tennant's regeneration in The Stolen Earth counts as a full one and if there was indeed another incarnation of Doc from the war. Personally though I am really hoping Hurt is the Valeyard. The different name of the same man, GI's name dropping him and how this one broke the promise of what the name "The Doctor" means. Considering what we know of the Valeyard that last one really gets my attention. Matt Smith knowing and recognising John Hurt wouldn't make much sense if he was a future incarnation. The Doctor's met his future self a number of times now, and doesn't recognise himself any of those times. I know it's a time travel show, so thing can get wibbly wobbly, but they were pretty definitely talking about the Doctor's past actions in how that incarnation of him broke that promise. But the location in the final scene was the Doctor's entire timestream. Meaning not only past Doctor's were present but also future ones were there. And the Doctor knows who the Valeyard is and that he has almost slipped into becoming like him before (Waters of Mars). He probably deduced that who he was gazing at was indeed the Valeyard.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 19:47:46 GMT
this one broke the promise of what the name "The Doctor" means. I think this is more likely to refer to the genocide (and possibly other real acts of war) in the Time War. He did, afterall, completely wipe out both the Timelords and the Daleks (well, he gave it his best shot with the pesky Daleks anyway). Really, it's the kind of act he's vehemently against in every other instance, and definitely worthy of the Doctor disowning himself for it. I think him being the Valeyard there would also not really work. Afterall, he specifically isn't doing anything in the name of the Doctor there. I'd be inclined to assume that the Valeyard namedrop is just a reference for the fans. Though bringing it up does at least put the Valeyard back on the table after it being deliberately removed from it in the past (and does also rekindle the idea that his regenerations are limited).
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Post by Lost Mercenary on May 19, 2013 19:55:06 GMT
this one broke the promise of what the name "The Doctor" means. I think this is more likely to refer to the genocide (and possibly other real acts of war) in the Time War. He did, afterall, completely wipe out both the Timelords and the Daleks (well, he gave it his best shot with the pesky Daleks anyway). Really, it's the kind of act he's vehemently against in every other instance, and definitely worthy of the Doctor disowning himself for it. And yet the graveyard was the result of a great blood soaked battle that he himself had lead leading to billions more deaths. It was also the battle that ended him. I really doubt the Doctor would reject Hurt (if he was a missing incarnation) only to do it all over again. Eccelston couldn't even bring himself to finish off the Daleks and the Earth because once was too much. I can only see the Valeyard leading such a battle. Also for all we know he was the aggressor and was put down by another force.
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 19, 2013 20:56:14 GMT
Right. Finally seen it and I know what I will say will annoy people; but ugh what a horrible mess that was. First off, River Song. Ugh. I know she's Moffat's darling but every single scene with her made me cringe. Second, so Clara is now Moffat's second darling. She's now all so important that she is always there with the Doctor, saving his ass. She's essentially Doctor Who's Cedric. It makes me think that Moffat feels his characters are all so important, even more so than every single other companion the Doctor has had. For me, the companions are the normal people, the point of perspective that the viewer can relate to. Third. Why the hell would the Doctor say that Hurt is not technically "the Doctor" when it's followed by John Hurt as the Doctor?! It looked sort of Tarantinoesque but still, how could you just ignore what the titular character has just said?! Lastly... what kind of ending is that anyway?! All the cool references to classic who had me feeling this would end in something spectacular, but now I just feel its an extended advert for the 50th anniversary. Anyways; I would be interested to see if the Valeyard makes an appearance. I like the idea of the character and now the Master and Rassilon have been cleared off the board, at least for now, I was wondering if the Valeyard was the next logical villain.
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on May 19, 2013 22:18:22 GMT
Matt Smith knowing and recognising John Hurt wouldn't make much sense if he was a future incarnation. Unless they did an episode where the Tenth Doctor met John Hurt's character. Which they are.
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Post by Alex on May 19, 2013 22:34:41 GMT
Except, it hasn't happened yet. When Davison and Tennant interacted in Timecrash, it took a while after the paradox began for them to start sharing memories of it. It's essentially the same thing with the other multi-Doctor episodes too. Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly. In any case, it's been pointed out that, although you can't see it very well in the shots in this episode, in the special, he's wearing what is essentially a combination of the 8th and 9th Doctor's clothes, a Victorian-esque shirt and cravate, with what seems to actually be Ecclestone's leather jacket: Given the original rumour that came about weeks before the episode aired (or leaked, or was shown to press): I do have to say, I'm definitely more inclined to believe in that, than either the idea he's a future incarnation and/or the Valeyard.
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Post by Chigs! on May 20, 2013 9:42:00 GMT
hee hee, I'm glad you said that mambo about Clara - STC/O comes in for a bit of schtick for borrowing from Who, but nice to see they sometimes are able to borrow from us once in a while! Found the conclusion a bit "meh" but some of the things you've discussed have me intrigued for the story ahead, particularly THAT crack...
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 20, 2013 9:59:07 GMT
Yeeah, sorry I was a tad angry when I wrote that, but I meant no offence. Just drawing a comparison.... Anyways what if John Hurt is the 9th Doctor? They're one and the same, somehow? Eccleston had said he didn't want to return so is this their way of returning to the Time War (assuming "what he did" is referring to the Time War and not something else...) without using the actual 9th Doctor?
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Post by Hevs on May 20, 2013 12:14:28 GMT
Really disliked that "finale", getting really tired of how Doctor Who has little to do with Science anymore.. I'unno, maybe it's just me. Probably is, lotsa people are digging Moffat's storytelling. I felt in terms of story it was pretty ridiculous, and goes on the pile of Moffat finales that are wishy-washy, explain nothing and are character-focused, when did DW become SUCH a Character Oriented show? I don't care about the impossible girl, or precious Amelia Pond. I care about baddies finding some way to screw things up and the Doctor having to find a way to restore it. RTD MAY have been simplistic and by no means perfect in his approach to finales, but at least they always had that epic feeling. Also, good job on hyping up "ITS THE DOCTORS NAME OMG" only to not deliver. Cheap. Sooner Moffat is gone the better, sooner Matt Smith is gone the better (I know he's great, personal taste here ^_^; . Only saving grace is River IMO, she needs to be in it all the time or something. I always assumed that we'd learn what the actual battle of Trenzalore was, and that "silence would fall". Those things didn't happen. ALTHOUGH - if I am wrong and someone could clarify that'd be great XD
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 20, 2013 12:31:20 GMT
I think "silence will fall" refers to the damage done to the Universe should the Doctor's name be uttered at his grave, then someone accessing the wound in space from the Doctor's actions. That or, if the question is asked silence should fall when the answer is given so that the grave cannot be opened in the first place...
And somehow that got misunderstood by people like Kovarian and the Silence themselves, who thought the Doctor himself would cause the the destruction of the Universe, rather than someone else [censored]ing with his timeline.
That's just how I've interpreted it anyway.
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Post by ShayMay on May 20, 2013 12:37:32 GMT
It's explicitly stated in the show that the "Silence" is on the Doctor's part: they kill him to ensure his silence, that he will never utter his own name.
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Post by Knuckles on May 20, 2013 12:53:22 GMT
I think "silence will fall" refers to the damage done to the Universe should the Doctor's name be uttered at his grave, then someone accessing the wound in space from the Doctor's actions. That or, if the question is asked silence should fall when the answer is given so that the grave cannot be opened in the first place... And somehow that got misunderstood by people like Kovarian and the Silence themselves, who thought the Doctor himself would cause the the destruction of the Universe, rather than someone else [censored]ing with his timeline. That's just how I've interpreted it anyway. But in the end, The Doctor did [censored] everything up. Clara went in, sorted it all and made it a perfect circle. The Doctor messes that up by jumping in after her, even though we've been told the Clara he knew wouldn't exist anymore. How she exists has to be explained, but The Doctor jumping in after her was just silly. It was a perfect circle up until then. Also, on borrowing from Sonic, I genuinely was reminded of "Robotnik Reigns Supreme" when Strax went bad and Jenny disappeared because there was no Doctor.
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 20, 2013 13:40:49 GMT
It's explicitly stated in the show that the "Silence" is on the Doctor's part: they kill him to ensure his silence, that he will never utter his own name. I got this from Vastra looking up at the stars seeing them all disappear. The number of lives snuffed out because the Doctor didn't save them... Also it doesn't have to be the Doctor himself who says the name. Did anyone else for a brief second thing the Doctor's name was "please'?! XD Also, on borrowing from Sonic, I genuinely was reminded of "Robotnik Reigns Supreme" when Strax went bad and Jenny disappeared because there was no Doctor. Yeah me too! XD Also "I think I've been murdered" was kinda O.o
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on May 20, 2013 16:29:57 GMT
Well, let's look at the actual prophecy "On the fields [battlefields] of Trenzalore, at the fall of the 11th [it's quite debatable whether this can be consider the fall of the 11th in any sense, potentially jumping into his time-stream or when he collapses amounts to this] , when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer [that really wasn't what happened here, the prophecy suggests that whatever happens will compel them to answer without any choice, threatening someone or their friends doesn't amount to all living creatures being unable to lie or remain silent] a question will be asked, a question which must never be answered,"
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Post by Alex on May 20, 2013 17:40:46 GMT
The fall of the 11th, at Trenzalore, could well be something else that's yet to happen. If anything, the fact we see the Doctor is actually dead there, and that the TARDIS is apparently unmistakeably the current version (window crack and all), would imply that the prophesy actually refers to that moment.
It would explain why the Doctor implicitly knew that Trenzalore was the site of his grave; he'd looked into the prophesy and presumably ended up discovering what happens there.
One of Moffat's central themes is that time travel may spell out an unavoidable fate, but just because something is fated to happen, it doesn't mean it has to happen the way you thought. Look at the TARDIS exploding - an act fated to happen from the moment the Doctor pulls a piece of it out of one of the cracks - it absolutely does happen, but the Doctor out-paradoxes it and gets around it. Similar thing happened with his 'death' in the last series, and the exits of Rory and Amy (Rory was forever doomed to be trapped in the past, but that fate was altered in the end with Amy joining him and them living out a different destiny).
Chances are, the Doctor's death on Trenzalore will be revisited, probably with the actual fall (death/regeneration) of the 11th Doctor. But given all of Moffat's other climaxes, it'll be twisted to both fulfil that destiny, and cheat fate.
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Jun 1, 2013 22:27:03 GMT
It's official. Matt Smith is leaving... this Christmas! Too soon man, too soon.
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