stc characters in archie!?

[HyperKnux99]

yea. i'm not joking. I even scaned them in to my comp look:

shortfuse:
www.angelfire.com/falcon/hyperknux99/shortfuse.jpg [/img]
Teckno & Ebony:
www.angelfire.com/falcon/hyperknux99/t_e.jpg [/img]


this begs me to ask aren't these characters copyrighted by stc? and if thats true how did archie get the rights?


*note: do not bash archie in this thread I do not care about your opinon of archie so don't tell me. thanks*

[JJ]

Oh my God, dude! That...that's impossible!

[Samface]

How odd! I shouldn't have thought Archie had too much trouble getting any rights...didn't someone say somewhere they once had the Underground characters in it? They probably just threw a wad of cash at Egmont, who then said "We don't do comics anymore...have them for free." Or something. ^^; I'm not very knowledgeable in such legal matters.

[JJ]

It's kind of awesome in a way, that they respect STC enough to reference them that way. On the other hand....it's strangely angering.

[HyperKnux99]

Samface said:

How odd! I shouldn't have thought Archie had too much trouble getting any rights...didn't someone say somewhere they once had the Underground characters in it? They probably just threw a wad of cash at Egmont, who then said "We don't do comics anymore...have them for free." Or something.

yes there were sonic underground characters in archie for one comic. and that easyly could be.


*oh and sorry for the quailty of the pics my scanner isn't that good.*

[Samface]

hyperknux99 said:

*oh and sorry for the quailty of the pics my scanner isn't that good.*

Don't worry about it. Is this from the latest issue?

[HyperKnux99]

yep its from # 134

[Sin]

This topic on the Sonic HQ Forum pretty much explains the whole thing in detail.

pub228.ezboard.com/fsonichqcommunityfrm18.showMessageRange?topicID=456.topic&start=1&stop=20

EDIT: Wow, I almost typed in the normal colour back then, I dodge a bullet.

[supersonicjim]

im not sure but I don't think the stc characters would be copyrighted as STC was not made directly by Sega.

of course they looked better in stc.

[Tom]

Er... neither Egmont nor Sega owns the rights to Ebony, Tekno, or Shortfuse... they belong to Nigel Kitching and Lew Stringer, respectively.

Does anyone know if they okayed this? Seems unlikely to me. I certainly didn't hear from Nigel K about it.

Yet another case of Archie and Sega being[censored]s, no doubt.

EDIT: just asked Nigel about it. What does the Sonic HQ page say, I can't get to it.

[HyperKnux99]

1) stop dissing archie

2) I doubt they would do it with out consent cuz they could get sued... (right?)

[JJ]

I just posted my thoughts as my SHQ identity - Secret Place 10.
For those who can't get on, the artist of the 'cameos' posted with this:

Originally posted by WB on SHQ - Special Zone
Guys - stop sniping at each other. Stop stop stop. It's silly, it isnt that deep, and its not cool to do so on everyones account over something that is a misunderstanding on everyones account. Let me explain myself and in my own words since I did it and I drew it. If someone would please be so kind as to copy and paste this on Ken's board (where the situation came up) as well since my computer is still wonky since my crash and I'm doing this from somewhere else, I would be very appreciative.

First things first - Putting Tekno and Ebony in as a cameo was totally my thing. Nobody else's. It wasnt meant to be an insult. It wasnt meant to be LETS GET ARCHIE MORE MONEY BY STEALING OTHERS PEOPLES CHARACTERS! It wasnt done in any fashion like that. I drew them in the book solely as an homage/cameo thing for the fandom. Furthermore, it was like a one panel cameo at that. No different from how James Fry drew the Snuffaluphagus, Hong Kong Phooey, and Winnie The Pooh in his giant crowd scene, or even how we've seen marvel ripoffs in a DC comic book (in a very warped sense of an example, but an example nonetheless). The scene in question called for a very large crowd of characters.

Now I was sitting at my drawing table drawing that page, and I didnt want to draw just something generic. I wanted to draw something where people could go - HEY LOOK! Theres so and so and so and so and so and have it be relevant to Sonic. And I also knew that ever since STC Sonic got cancelled a lot of people in the UK had migrated from STC to Archie to kind of get thier official monthly Sonic fix. They had not seen "thier characters" in print for some time and I thought it would be a nice thing to do (At the risk of sounding kinda mean but truthful, I see now that it wont be appreciated so I wont be doing that again ). I thought that this would be the perfect way to send a nod to the UK STC fandom that I knew existed in Archie by tossing them in as a subtle cameo. Nothing more. Nothing less. They wouldnt be appearing ever again they wouldnt have any other impact but a "OMG LOOK ITS TEKNO **jump up and down and squeal**" kind of thing. Before anyone here goes speaking for me and putting words in my mouth that arent there, there was no disrespect meant to Mr. Kitching or Mr. Stringer. I only drew them in almost as a way of saying hi to the UK fans and telling them "Thank you. We acknowledge that you are here. Have fun!". Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said before, I wont do it again.

I thought to myself - you know it would be really cool if - to even cement that homage further - I had someone mention thier name just once. Personally - I've always liked STC and I am a HUGE HUGE fan of Tekno in particular. I have always liked her and how Mr. Stringer used her in the book, so I thought it fitting that she stand in that one panel next to Amy. Ebony was standing by her side only as bonus window dressing and you can kinda find both scattered in the huge crowd as it repeats.

Now you ask - well what about copyrights, huh? What about that? After my pages were turned in, just to be on the safe side the editor on the book checked with Sega Liscensing. If you have Sonic 134 in your hands you can see for yourself that there is a thanks to the Sega Liscensing division at the beginning of the credits because that question did come up. No thing like that would have been made on the fly. Would it be ok to use the STC characters only as just a cameo/homage (which I repeat is all they were intended for as far as this issue goes)? I was told officially that I may have to delete them and redraw that panel and I was like, if thats a problem then its no biggie, I would be more than happy to redraw it because I didnt want to get anybody in any kind of trouble over the fact that I wanted to draw a nod to a different continuity. Sega Liscensing says that if a character in the comics appears in a Sonic comic or any other kind of merchandise, then Sega can freely use them where they like - be it in a game (which we all know is never going to happen anyway) or another comic. Its exactly like how when Sonic Underground came out, Sonia and Manic played a MUCH MORE prominent plot role in the Super Special. And if you want me to turn the tables even further, much like how Princess Sally was used in the very early days of STC where no one in the Archie camp said anything about THAT. In other words - they were cool with it. Its not like we took Tekno turned her into a foil for Sally and planned to parade her around for 50 more issues. And you can rest assured and believe that if it were anything more than that I would have made EVERY PERSONAL effort that I could have to check with Mr. Stringer and/or Mr. Kitching. There was no disrespect intended and none was meant even at the very beginning when I was sitting at my drawing table. Again - all it was was that *I* drew them in one panel and we DID check to see if it was OK through Sega Liscensing - otherwise it would have never seen print.

Now having said that - I was never under the impression that Mr. Kitching or Mr. Stringer OWNED Tekno and Ebony flat out. And I'm bring dead serious. To be honest - considering what SEGA said I dont think that is the case. Even Ken Penders has stated that Julie-Su and Geoffrey St. John are no longer technically his, so if they were to be used in an ad he couldnt do anything, because much like Princess Sally who has been used in numerous places outside Archie and remains one of the only non Sonic Team characters to have a lot of merchandise outside of the comic and appear (albeit off looking ^_^) outside her own continuity, she, Bunnie, Antione, and even the STC guys are all part of the Sonic franchise. Its almost like saying Nigel Kitching had no right to use Pachacamac or Tikal in the final STC story arc, or if you wanna be REEEEEEEAAAAALLLLY nitpicky saying that he had no right to not turn Robotnik into SA Eggman when the story came out. We know he took creative liscensce with the characters much like ken and Karl do on the book even now. yes thats a flimsy example but I hope you get what I'm saying. No disrespect meant. ^^

Take it how it was meant to be please. Just a simple "Hey look! Cool!" cameo and nothing more. I just wanted to say hi to the STC fans. To say it was intentionally meant to be anything else but that is just absurd and to imply that they were stolen is even sillier because that was not the case. You cant rest assured now though that I won't acknowledge STC again.

[Tom]

Thanks, Jamie.

Looks to me like there's a bit of confusion... most likely because Egmont was too unprofessional to issue contracts to its creatives until 2002

But as I understand it, the rights to Tekno, Ebony, etc belong to the people who created them. Not Egmont and definitely not Sega.

The rights to how the material could be republished would be a lot more questionable. But we had a huge great topic about this on the STC list a few months ago, to which Nigel K contributed to (including quotes from Lew Stringer) - go to the link in my sig and do a search for "Who owns the rights?".

I doubt Nigel will care much, but I'm sure Lew will - particularly as Tekno is actually named (and has some pretty atrocious dialogue coming out of her mouth), and particularly considering how unhappy he was last time someone else used Tekno.

And honestly, even with Sega's all-too-generic response in consideration, it's pretty appalling they didn't think to ask the writer's permission in the first place. It's just good manners.

[Spydaman]

It wasn't a decision by Archie to put Tekno, Ebony and Shortfust in. The guy who drew that issue, WB, is a fan of the characters and it was him who decided to draw them in. And according to what he said, Sega seems to own the character because they appeared in an official Sega product. All I have to say is, to anyone thinking it, don't bash Archie for this. Be thankful STC is being given kudos in that way. Frankly I think it's pretty cool

[Samface]

Hear hear!

Like I said over at the Mobius Forum, it's just a nice little gesture designed to make you grin. Which it did, in my case. ;D

[Tom]

Spydaman said:

Sega seems to own the character because they appeared in an official Sega product.

No they don't. Lew and Nigel would claim character ownership, and I'm inclined to agree with them - as opposed to information relayed second-hand from some American lawyers working for a company that was barely even aware of STC's existence, if at all.

[harryhatman]

Who cares who owns the rights, its just good that we get recognised in the atrociosly Archie-centric sonic world!

[madhair60]

Thats awesome. It may awaken other readers to the delights of STC.

Where do you get these Archie comics? I mean, they aren't in Forbidden Planet....

[Spydaman]

Tom said:

No they don't. Lew and Nigel would claim character ownership, and I'm inclined to agree with them - as opposed to information relayed second-hand from some American lawyers working for a company that was barely even aware of STC's existence, if at all.

Well character ownership seems to be a weird thing but look at it this way. Artist Joe Mad came up with the character of Marrow for X-Men, yet he couldn't use that character anywhere cos he doesn't have character ownership. The character is owned by Marvel even though he may be credited for the character concept. I dunno whether Lew and Nigel had to sign anything to say whether the characters were owned by STC or Sega or if Joe Mad had to do similarly. But if you look at it that way, y'know? Stan Lee created half the marvel characters but he can't just take em and make a comic whenever he feels like it. Like I said, it's a complicated thing and guess the best thing would be to ask Lew and Nigel themselves.

I'm hoping to track down the comic myself. Thinking of getting a subscription cos I wanna actually read Archie in length and get a better understanding of it. I think too many people bash it without really knowing it and I think the main reason they bash it is cos it uses the characters from the cartoon and because it's Archie comics. *shrug* but anyway..

[Dimension]

I think it's p-retty cool, might have been nice if the comic would have had a url for stc online though.. you know, for peeps collecting archie, not knowing this site existed I know it's not an official continuation or anything but meh, it's here for stc fans, what good is it without them?

[Tom]

Considering it was Marvel and it was the 1990s, Joe Madueira would have definitely signed a lot of contracts with Marvel which would have included the work-for-hire, character-ownership clauses. I believe Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko et al did the same back in the 1960s; it's pretty standard practice in the US (although it doesn't always happen - see Neil Gaiman's recent Spawn/Miracleman court case against Todd McFarlane, which Gaiman won on every count by the way).

None of the STC creators ever signed ANY contracts with anyone, so what happens to the characters and work they created is, legally, up to nobody but them.

As I expected, Nigel doesn't care much, but Lew is a bit miffed (since he designed Tekno and used her in dozens of stories without ever signing anything over to Sega or Egmont). Richard Elson reckons if they used any of his characters (eg Plunder) he'd hit the roof.

[Spydaman]

But the thing is, it's not like they were an actual part of the story, they were just drawn into the background, with the exception of Tekno who has like ONE little line. They're not part of the plot so I don't see any reason to get worked up about it.

[Zak29]

Spydaman: I'm hoping to track down the comic myself. Thinking of >getting a subscription cos I wanna actually read Archie in length >and get a better understanding of it. I think too many people >bash it without really knowing it and I think the main reason they >bash it is cos it uses the characters from the cartoon and >because it's Archie comics. *shrug* but anyway..

Dude, I get it every month, and I can tell you its pretty damn bad. True, it can have some nice covers and Axers stuff is cool, but the stories? Atrocious. You should read the Sonic /Sabrina crossover they did, thats especially good (shudder)

[Omega Wants Cake]

What exactly happened in this Issue? Was there some kind of time spill?

Well thats suprissing, I'd expected cameos, but dialogue from Tekno

Who's next, Commander Brutus, the Drakon prossecutor ...

[Tom]

Spydaman said:

But the thing is, it's not like they were an actual part of the story, they were just drawn into the background, with the exception of Tekno who has like ONE little line. They're not part of the plot so I don't see any reason to get worked up about it.

It's enough to make you want to spend money on it though, isn't it? And therefore Archie earns money off someone else's hard work, without their consent (legal or otherwise). Pretty atrocious behaviour IMO.