|
Post by Knuckles on Nov 5, 2007 14:06:06 GMT
While I'm sure Kane's motives are hardly legit I want to comment on the article he placed about Sonic in issue 239. I have never seen Sonic as a hero and ever since he destroyed those files from Robotnik's death egg which could have helped Mobius I've began to question him more. So here is my question: Now that Robotnik is overthrown and Mobius is a free state is Sonic no more than a vigilante? As mentioned in "The inside story" Sonic can keep tabs on the whole of Mobius. What gives him the right in a free state to play Big Brother? I assume even Mobian police don't have that much control. I don't think anyone, even a hero like Sonic should have the access to satellites and spy cameras in a free world. It isn't right, no matter what the intentions are. There was an interesting quote in 239 that I agreed with. "The thing to understand about Sonic is that under Robotnik's rule he was a military leader. Even though we're now at peace, he's too used to commanding to sit back now. He has to be in control" This rings true to me and there are many cases to back it up. Of course Sonic is a born leader and that's all well and good but how many times on the Floating Island has he ordered Knuckles around? Knuckles is his equal in terms of ability yet he treats him like just another sidekick. This reminded me of the issue he set Knuckles a trial in the original STC. I can't fully remember the plot but Sonic wanted to see if he was on his toes so he and Tails went to the Mushroom Hill Zone and tested him. Knuckles has many times said he wants to be left alone and does not like Sonic on his island and wishes to have no part in Sonic's fight yet Sonic continually ropes him in to the war. Also Sonic forced Knuckles into storing the Emerald Hill folk during Robotnik's rule in exchange for the Chaos Emeralds. We all know how powerful these are and Sonic used them as leverage, holding them ransom and forcing Knuckles to put him and his island in more danger by storing the Emerald Hill folk. (side note: Why just the Emerald Hill folk. Was no other zone in danger? ) Another point raised was the way he treats Tails and his other friends. I always despised the way he reacted when Porker told him he was leaving to join Knuckles. This comes back to his controlling attitude. Porker is not a fighter, instead just someone who idolizes Sonic but Sonic couldn't see that and tried to manipulate Porker who is weak willed to say the least. A part of me wonders if his real annoyance was losing Porker to his rival Knuckles. He didn't like that Knuckles was using one of the Freedom Fighters for his own ends even though he has no problem using Knuckles and his island. As mentioned in 239 the way he treats Tails is disgraceful. It's no wonder Tails had issues with confidence, as seen when fighting in the Nameless Zone and with the flock he refused to take credit for his bravery. Tails has finally stepped out of Sonic's shadow and became a hero in his own right and some of me wonders wether a more mature Tails now sees Sonic for who he really is. Perhaps after Johnny's death (which was in no way Sonic's fault, I am not trying to insinuate that) some of his friends began to question Sonic and see cracks in him. Everything else in the article is pretty much just Kane turning everything into a negative spin. His working with Plunder was called for and was during Robotnik's rule. As we all know his decision to turn Kintobor into Robotnik could not be avoided. Super Sonic is a grey area to me. I don't know if Sonic should be charged for the damage done under the influence of Super. Perhaps it could be chalked down to the same laws as Multiple Personality Disorder? I'll sit on the fence with that one. So there we have it. My take on Sonic, the "hero" of Mobius
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Nov 5, 2007 17:04:13 GMT
You're right - Sonic is just a vigilante. He has no sanction by Zone Leaders or police departments to do what he does (though they do often his help). Since he's the vigilante who saved Mobius on many occasions, nobody had a problem with it until recently. As for his spy systems - that is a big invasion of privacy, but Sonic would say that without those systems he & his team would be arriving late to stop villains and miss out on critical intelligence, which would put lives at risk. (side note: Why just the Emerald Hill folk. Was no other zone in danger? ) Robotnik was specifically out to destroy that Zone with the Death Egg and intended to try again as revenge after its destruction. He really had it in for that Zone.
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Nov 5, 2007 17:27:51 GMT
Regarding Sonic's attitude to Knuckles, I feel that Sonic had to keep Knuckles informed and ready, although testing him was not the way to do it. Being fair, Knuckles doesn't have that great a history at keeping the emeralds safe, and the way that Robotnik, and others, have infiltrated the island's defenses to get to the greatest power source in the galaxy, would leave me worried as well.
Sonic is a loose cannon, but his intentions have always been for the greater good. He teases Tails, Knuckles and Porker the same way I would tease my sister and my friends- I would like to think that they know I don't mean them any harm, but from an outsider's perspective, it could be seen as cruel.
I do agree with you when Sonic destroyed the files in the Death Egg- Sonic's pride was too great that it potentially cost hundreds of lives in medicine, or great developments with technology. Sonic himself has said that "Mobius needs it's industries if it's going to prosper" (or something along those lines).
An interesting story would be one posed in Doctor Who, when the Doctor was confronted by a possible future, and twisted regeneration to pass judgement on him. A story could take part where Sonic is faced with a decision; where in one part, Sonic is considered a hero as a result, and one where he becomes more and more twisted, and ultimately, corrupt.
|
|
|
Post by The Tikal who had no Toes on Nov 5, 2007 17:45:04 GMT
You mean, like in Human Nature / The Family Of Blood?
|
|
|
Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Nov 5, 2007 18:36:54 GMT
Robotnik was specifically out to destroy that Zone with the Death Egg and intended to try again as revenge after its destruction. He really had it in for that Zone. I always assumed it was because it was the Zone where Sonic supposedly came from? Also Im sure in the first Shortfuse strip, Sonic yells to Robotnik that he "cant leave the Emerald Hill Zone for five minutes without him causing trouble"... or something like that. I seem to remember a lot of stuff shifting to Metropolis Zone later on tho, like The Big Con... (that made me laugh "trade in your lifes savings for a photo of our glorious leader!" ;D)
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Nov 5, 2007 18:38:30 GMT
That wasn't a gag, that was Lew actively reporting the autograph costs at some conventions!
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Nov 5, 2007 18:43:08 GMT
You mean, like in Human Nature / The Family Of Blood? No, it was with the sixth Doctor. *Checks Wikipedia* I'm on about Trial of a Time Lord, and the Valeyard is the corrupted Doctor of the future.
|
|
|
Post by Beta on Nov 5, 2007 18:53:07 GMT
Perhaps Sonic should travel through a tower of ordeals of his own. Maybe some mystic will come guide him to that Relearn how to dedicate himself to saving people from harm, no matter who or what they are. & loose some of his arrogant ego I think sometimes he is just a little too mean when he teases others. Wierd, we keep reminding ourselves Knuckles is just as strong as Sonic is fast yet Knuckles is still seen as a weakling anyway, the law of Mobius is obviously the fastest do the ownage, strength can get the runner up prizes. Or will we oneday finally get a story to remind us how kickass Knuckles should be ?
|
|
Ed
Ex-Hume
Satan (Apparently)
Posts: 4,320
|
Post by Ed on Nov 5, 2007 20:52:43 GMT
I'm a little surprised people are so hard on Sonic for wiping the Death Egg data. And I'm not saying people are wrong, but in his defence, don't forget the information came from a guy who experimented on people in inhuman (so to speak) ways, turning them into organic batteries and monstrous cyborgs.
|
|
|
Post by The Shad on Nov 5, 2007 20:55:58 GMT
Also, the question of WHY would Robotnik have all that stuff needs to be raised.
Hell, for all we know the "cures" and such were not very good for you.
|
|
|
Post by Badly-Drawn Manchild on Nov 5, 2007 21:00:26 GMT
I dunno. I would have thought Porker's word about these things could be trusted. If he thought there was anything untoward about the data, surely he would have picked up on it. Sonic's attitude just struck me as being too proud to admit that Porker may have a point; he obviously felt Mobius would be indebted to Robotnik if they used any of the Death Egg's discoveries, and he didn't want that regardless of how helpful the information was. Of course there's always the possibility there was something amiss with the data and Porker got carried away in the "first impression" excitement.
In any case, I reckon both Sonic and Porker were right... and they were also both wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Knuckles on Nov 5, 2007 21:04:45 GMT
I'm a little surprised people are so hard on Sonic for wiping the Death Egg data. And I'm not saying people are wrong, but in his defence, don't forget the information came from a guy who experimented on people in inhuman (so to speak) ways, turning them into organic batteries and monstrous cyborgs. If Hitler found a cure for cancer would you just toss it away because of who it came from? Regardless of wether it came from Robotnik or not Sonic had no right to destroy it. That information could have saved thousands. Who does he think he is making a choice like that? In a free state Sonic takes it upon himself to make such a big descision. This should have went to global vote and decided by the people. By destroying information that could change history in Mobius Sonic goes beyond his vigilantism and his usual arrogance. He in fact becomes almost as bad as Robotnik. Sonic decides what happens, and destroys it although his friends believe the information to be useful. That is a signal Sonic sees himself in control of Mobius. This isn't a free state. It's under Sonic's dictatorship.
|
|
|
Post by Beta on Nov 5, 2007 21:05:35 GMT
I think it's a good example of pride for Sonic in that case. I mean think, what can we proudly thank Hitler for? Now... try to put Robotnik in that mental picture of Hitler you may have both have a ridiculous mustache so that should help! So I can get a little of what Sonic was feeling when he did that.
|
|
|
Post by The Shad on Nov 5, 2007 21:06:48 GMT
I dunno. I would have thought Porker's word about these things could be trusted. Yes, he can. BUT! If its a new cure for a previously "uncurable" (like, for example, AIDS), how do you know, with just one look that it works? Why would Robotnik be working on cures for such diseases? Not for profit, (he ran the planet, after all) and certainly not for the benefit of the people. As a way of screwing the people over, for destroying his precious super-weapon?
|
|
|
Post by Knuckles on Nov 5, 2007 21:07:33 GMT
I think it's a good example of pride for Sonic in that case. I mean think, what can we proudly thank Hitler for? Now... try to put Robotnik in that mental picture of Hitler you may have both have a ridiculous mustache so that should help! So I can get a little of what Sonic was feeling when he did that. we both compared him to Hitler at the same time:P The Force is strong in this one
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Nov 5, 2007 21:14:12 GMT
Robotnik could have been stockpiling the information for himself- he could have become ill at any time. Also, if the people start dying, then he wouldn't have any organic batteries...
|
|
|
Post by Awdures on Nov 5, 2007 21:30:54 GMT
I think it's a good example of pride for Sonic in that case. I mean think, what can we proudly thank Hitler for?
|
|
|
Post by Nam on Nov 5, 2007 21:59:48 GMT
I'm a little surprised people are so hard on Sonic for wiping the Death Egg data. And I'm not saying people are wrong, but in his defence, don't forget the information came from a guy who experimented on people in inhuman (so to speak) ways, turning them into organic batteries and monstrous cyborgs. If Hitler found a cure for cancer would you just toss it away because of who it came from? Regardless of wether it came from Robotnik or not Sonic had no right to destroy it. That information could have saved thousands. This is Robotnik though, for all we know, Robotnik had deliberately created false information, or conducted false research as a back up plan. Robotnik has always been presented as pure evil, doing everything for power and control. It doesn't matter what he did, chances are they could be used in some way to take control of Mobius again. I've never seen anything to suggest Robotnik would help people, unless he was also saving his own ass from another threat (like destroying Brutus). Sonic made the decision as he saw fit. Might have been a dumb one, but when was Sonic ever the type to think before he acted?
|
|
|
Post by Knuckles on Nov 5, 2007 22:33:26 GMT
It wasn't Sonic's decision to make though. It's not up to him to decide what's best for Mobius, not if Mobius is a democracy. Which brings me back to my point about Sonic being a dictator of sorts
|
|
|
Post by Nam on Nov 5, 2007 22:48:41 GMT
Except the Death Egg still had capabilities to make an army of robots that could eventually kill them all. Someone had to make a snap decision, and Sonic made the quickest decision possible (destroying it meant there'd be no data to argue over) to get them back to safety. I don't think it was a decision of "what's best for mobius" but rather one of "what gets us out of here the quickest". Sonic wasn't thinking about the reprocussions, merely about the present, and that doesn't make him a ditactor. A dictator decides the future, all Sonic does is respond to the present. The fact that it tends to set the fate of Mobius is merely coincidental.
|
|
|
Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Nov 5, 2007 22:53:20 GMT
If Hitler found a cure for cancer would you just toss it away because of who it came from? Regardless of wether it came from Robotnik or not Sonic had no right to destroy it. That information could have saved thousands. . Funny you should say that, Im sure Mengeles rather disgusting experiments on twins helped our understanding of them genetically... although dont quote me on that, I dont wanna sound like a git! Anyways yesch I seem to remember seeing a similar discussion when the Return to the Death Egg issue was out... what was in those files could have been of use but I guess because of where it was came from it would seem inethical... but meh.. like someones already said, whose decision was that exactly? Surely other scientists not someone who obviously has no interested in the subject?
|
|
|
Post by Insector on Nov 6, 2007 9:25:26 GMT
I think Sonic is driven entirely by guilt. Guilt which he suppresses, which is then directed as aggression towards his friends. Clearly he's got a lot to be guilty about. Firstly, and most obviously, he has Super Sonic inside him, and on more than one occasion this has put his friends in danger. Secondly, the creation of Robotnik. Thirdly, Johnny's death.
In fact, Sonic blames himself for just about everything that goes wrong on Mobius, whether it's his fault or not. Consider it: Sonic has no control over himself when he's super; he HAD to doom Kintobor; and Johnny's death is plainly Chaos' fault. Why then, does he feel responsible for EVERYTHING? It's like you guys have said before me, he's been the world police for so long that he's used to having the difficult decisions thrust upon him. He's used to saving the world time and time over. Yes, he's a vigilante, but he HAS to be. And in this more stable Mobius he's having problems adjusting.
That's why Sonic treats his friends (and Knuckles) in such a way. The sheer pressure of protecting the world would have drove him mad otherwise. The fact that Mobius is beginning to support itself is rendering him, and his way of thinking, obsolete.
|
|
|
Post by Matt on Nov 6, 2007 10:10:27 GMT
It wasn't Sonic's decision to make though. It's not up to him to decide what's best for Mobius, not if Mobius is a democracy. Which brings me back to my point about Sonic being a dictator of sorts but look at it another way, moral dilemmas about using unethical research rage on all the time from tests conducted in terrible condition's, Sonic wants Mobius to be free, while it might not have been the best choice for mobius, it isn't as evil as you seem to be making out... a Mobius that uses Robotniks technology will always be unable to break free of his influence, all new technology will be based on updates and modifications to Robotniks work, they will be in his shadow and his mark on mobius will be impossible to escape, Sonic saw that and wanted Mobius to be it's own person free of it horrid past. Maybe it wasn't his call to make, but in the end it wasn't a call made because his pride got in the way, or he decided to flat out refuse robotniks help... just that he wanted whats best for Mobius. I'm surprised just how fast people are to turn on sonic, saying that in a free world he has no place... Mobius is a fractured divided planet, he's the closest thing the planet has to a global leader... and issue 101 showed hat Mobius wasn't ready to take on the task of global self rule. we're not talking about a peaceful global democracy, were talking about a planet were many of the zone leaders are inept, evil or unable to cope with out the help of outside hero's. Mobius is a planet, of people out to fill the power vacuum of mobius, restore there doctors or wreak havoc for petty reasons, they still cannot survive without some hero force to complement the police force. sonic has been heading for trouble in the comic for a while now and no doubt it's going to come back and bite him, but think of all the people judging him that without him would be forever trapped as slaves to robotnik, sonics attitude needs to (but probably won't) change before it's to late, however it's not because he's as bad a robotnik, but that in a free mobius people are to quick to believe the media.
|
|
|
Post by Baron Canier on Nov 6, 2007 10:18:48 GMT
Who does he think he is making a choice like that? Sonic the mother[censored]ing hedgehog. He also a fictional character, so it doesn't matter.
|
|
|
Post by The Tikal who had no Toes on Nov 6, 2007 13:22:30 GMT
He also a fictional character, so it doesn't matter. Faeros wins the No [censored] Sherlock Award. I have to admit, I kind of like these character analysis and debate threads. It's good to see that STC-O is still sparking these ideas. I mean, it always helps if you read a book or comic or watch a film or TV programme, and you wind up thinking about the characters and caring about them. OK, some people can take it too far, but luckily this is STC-O and not Sonic Passion.
|
|