Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 6, 2010 20:16:09 GMT
Aria, it's free work. It's done by volunteers, who aren't paid, and don't get any money for there efforts. The style is there choice, not anyone elses, and they do it in whatever style they please, for whatever they want. From what I know, Smithy's work (the vichama paintwork mainly) was done as much for fancomic fun, but also for his own professional working portfolio, hence the difference. You can't just say "It's a Sonic comic" as justification for the art style being right. Just look at some of the strips in Sonic The Comic (the professionally published, paper one, the one that got paid for). That itself was nothing like the Sonic art style. But ultimately, this isn't professional work, you can't expect professional quality and consistency, that just doesn't happen. The old comics have some god awful styles in them as well. I'm not just nitpicking at the online version.  There are some pretty terrible looking STC art styles as well. (I can't find the issue, but look at one of Tails' stories where he saves the kids. Look at Issue 15 as well) It's a Sonic comic, I point out what doesn't look like Sonic style. Saying "It's his style" isn't justification for drawing weird designs in a Sonic comic. |
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Post by madhair60 on May 6, 2010 20:20:09 GMT
I'll counter your average mediocrity with some middle-of-the-road standard ORDINARINESS!
Edit: Again, aimed at Nam. For goodness sake, Aria, you KNOW nobody is allowed to post before me.
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Post by WinterFlames on May 6, 2010 20:28:01 GMT
I wouldn't necessarily say it's just a case of "drawing them". Styles are a very personalized thing, or at least I've always felt they are. Perhaps akin to handwriting, in the sense that it slowly develops and evolves, but directly attempting to change to a completely different method of writing will usually result in a mess, or if the end product is satisfactory it's not quite as easy a task to replicate. Also I quite like the varying STCO art styles.  And STCs. Tails and the kids? The Morbidden Hunt? Artwork by Cassanovas and J.M.Burns. I guess their work is quite the Marmite Factor. Off the top of my head they also did... Predicto, The Frozen Zone, The Unbeatable Foe, and err... and probably some others. Marmite. |
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Post by Nam on May 6, 2010 20:29:56 GMT
I'll counter your average mediocrity with some middle-of-the-road standard ORDINARINESS! You and your perfectly ordinary ordinariness. Keep doing that, and I'll have to make some sort of predicatable joke with expected outcomes. lol cums |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 6, 2010 21:00:07 GMT
I'll counter your average mediocrity with some middle-of-the-road standard ORDINARINESS! Edit: Again, aimed at Nam. For goodness sake, Aria, you KNOW nobody is allowed to post before me. I just did. OOH I went there. I went there, took pics and flew back already. ;D I understand style is a personal thing, I'm pretty experienced with it, and I think if the guy were to do something that would look better with the style, like the Shenmue story (which I skimmed because, well, I don't read a Sonic comic for a game I've never played) it would look fine. I don't think he's a terrible artist, I just think his Sonic characters look creepy as hell and remind me of humans in Sonic suits. It's not entirely impossible to alter a style, I've done it several times. It doesn't have to look perfect, it just needs to be tweaked. Lose the chins and make tem rounded, make them shorter, thinner limbs and make Sonic's eyes connect. General Sonic style. |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 6, 2010 21:24:54 GMT
I personally loved Casanovas' style - especially his Tails model. :3 So yeah, my own gawd awful artwork at its best looked like a really horrible fusion of Elsonesque frowns with elongated Casanovas bodies. ;D Ahhh I miss my old doodles!  |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 6, 2010 21:32:25 GMT
I personally loved Casanovas' style - especially his Tails model. :3 So yeah, my own gawd awful artwork at its best looked like a really horrible fusion of Elsonesque frowns with elongated Casanovas bodies. ;D Ahhh I miss my old doodles! Can I ask what you liked about it? |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 6, 2010 21:39:41 GMT
I personally loved Casanovas' style - especially his Tails model. :3 So yeah, my own gawd awful artwork at its best looked like a really horrible fusion of Elsonesque frowns with elongated Casanovas bodies. ;D Ahhh I miss my old doodles! Can I ask what you liked about it? Yes, you can. (See what I did there - hur hur) I just liked the way the model looked back in the day - Tails looked like an older version of the Tails seen on the Sonic 2 cover. He had a very similar face, with the long, almost pointy nose and large ears - unlike the Tails seen in AoSTH and SatAM - which were the other models I was mostly familiar with. In STC I was always under the impression that Tails was slightly older than all of his other versions - perhaps he was a young teenager rather than a child, and I guess the taller, elongated body Casanovas gave him made him appear that way even more. I also liked his expressions. Dare I say it, I was never much of a fan of Elson's Tails - he looked a bit odd, like a mixture of the US and Japanese classic models. |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 7, 2010 13:01:58 GMT
Can I ask what you liked about it? Yes, you can. (See what I did there - hur hur) I just liked the way the model looked back in the day - Tails looked like an older version of the Tails seen on the Sonic 2 cover. He had a very similar face, with the long, almost pointy nose and large ears - unlike the Tails seen in AoSTH and SatAM - which were the other models I was mostly familiar with. In STC I was always under the impression that Tails was slightly older than all of his other versions - perhaps he was a young teenager rather than a child, and I guess the taller, elongated body Casanovas gave him made him appear that way even more. I also liked his expressions. Dare I say it, I was never much of a fan of Elson's Tails - he looked a bit odd, like a mixture of the US and Japanese classic models. Oh. I like STC's Tails in the respect that he does have the more canine-like nose, the larger ears and all, but I hate the tall-looking Tails because it does make him look older. His cute and innocent plot just doesn't work if he were, say, 13, as opposed to 8-10. At least he doesn't look like a rat with two tails like in AoStH though but it does detract from the 'cute fox kid' character. I guess yo like it for the reason I don't. ;D But I will say that STC sticks by the Japanese art better than most other canons with him because of the other things not involving strange height. |
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Post by Charles on May 7, 2010 18:34:45 GMT
Saying "It's his style" isn't justification for drawing weird designs in a Sonic comic. It's the only justification he really needs, especially since STC itself never followed a set art style. What'd be the point in imposing one on its fan continuation? I was never much of a fan of Elson's Tails Do not blaspheme!  |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 8, 2010 17:54:41 GMT
Saying "It's his style" isn't justification for drawing weird designs in a Sonic comic. The fact that there are general rules following the Sonic canon that define part of it's familiarities, and that have very rarely changed throughout it's lifetime. It's expected that the traits of the general style (That does not need to be very specific) are kept in-tact when portraying characters or scenes so they reserve some relation to that which they attempt to represent. There's things about Sonic you don't change, because they make him Sonic. You can't redefine it overnight, and sometimes at all. I respect your efforts to keep something you love alive, but the style the artist is drawing in is too far removed from the expected representation of the characters. It doesn't have to be a perfect style, he just needs to make a few tweaks, which aren't very hard to make at all. Indeed if this were his own canon, with his own characters and his own story, I would have little problems because then it would be an issue of how he chooses to represent his ideas, and not someone else's. And actually, STC has had a consistency with it's artwork even if some artwork looks distorted. It still looks like Sonic, this is the only time when it hasn't looked like Sonic. It has always carried the trademark familiarities of the style, and it rarely strayed, this is, however, the one exception to that, where the style is so removed from the others in the comic to where it has lost even the trademarks of the style that have always been there. Even on SEGA's worst days they haven't managed to warp the style in such a way where it became almost unrecognizable. It's painfully obvious the artist isn't a Sonic artist, which isn't to say that he is a bad artist, because as I said before, he would probably do fine with something that combined with his style better, all I've tried to imply is that it's not Sonic style which should be a necessity in a Sonic comic. This is a little unrelated, but when it comes to situations where art of other people's characters is involved, that's when fans can rub me the wrong way; when they outright refuse constructive criticism or advice because our society permits artists to believe that if they draw something, unless it's a direct trace, even if it's not their characters, it's their art. There's a thousand examples of such behavior on sites like deviantART, which is why I hardly go there anymore; the amount of disrespect for the traditional trademarks of the style or lack of traits represented in the characters left uncorrected because some fantard can't take constructive criticism like a mature individual and would rather flame someone just for giving them legitimate criticism or advice on ways o improve and call them a communist or elitist because of some fabricated belie that 'they don't like other people's opinions' is absolutely the most appalling attitude any artist can have. Especially since most of them are the same 'artists' that raise hell if someone draws their own characters the wrong way. When someone is attempting to mimic a style, differences in designs are as much mechanical flaws as mechanical flaws themselves are. Because of the evolution and progression of artwork over the past few centuries, and indeed long before that, it's impossible to truly form any specifics of how images should e represented in any truly definite rule set, not including the basic principles and elements of design, however, this is only true for one's own artwork. No one can tell someone a flaw is a flaw if it was intentional, and there have become definite ways to define flaws in artwork (again referencing he principles and elements of design), but if someone attempts a set style, that has more definite guidelines, and any major breach of those can and will be pointed out by others familiar with the style. This does no mean that a style can't have a variation of the style, but it usually doesn't happen in circumstances such as these, when a fan attempts to represent within an established series. If it were, and always was, a trademark of the series itself, that would be different, but it isn't, and isn't common enough to be, so it can be classified as an incorrect representation. This also can apply to any fan work, while minor tweaks may not be an issue, major deviations from the set style of another person's art are incorrect. TL;DR: It's a Sonic comic. |
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Post by Charles on May 8, 2010 18:16:07 GMT
It still looks like Sonic, this is the only time when it hasn't looked like Sonic. You linked to a page which does not have Sonic in it. Unless by "Sonic" you mean "the Sega Sonic style", in which case no, STC has not always looked like that. And Sega didn't care. Now if they didn't care, as long as people can look at the art and immediately know "that's Shorty and Tekno on that page", I don't really see the point in me caring either. |
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Post by ShayMay on May 8, 2010 18:16:14 GMT
Do not blaspheme!  And... [censored]. Aria, that is a looooooooooong post.  |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 8, 2010 23:08:21 GMT
It still looks like Sonic, this is the only time when it hasn't looked like Sonic. You linked to a page which does not have Sonic in it. Unless by "Sonic" you mean "the Sega Sonic style", in which case no, STC has not always looked like that. And Sega didn't care. Now if they didn't care, as long as people can look at the art and immediately know "that's Shorty and Tekno on that page", I don't really see the point in me caring either. That's the problem, I didn't know it was Shorty until he transformed... He was too tall, for starters. It was used in another story as well, you don't think it's an eyesore when you see a character that just doesn't look like that character? Or barely looks like that character? You don't think you should make an attempt at drawing Sonic style in a Sonic comic? |
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Post by Charles on May 8, 2010 23:51:35 GMT
That's the problem, I didn't know it was Shorty until he transformed... Really?  His name's stated in panel 1 and he responds to a report on Shorty by saying "I". (Plus, it mentioned it was him in the Control Zone and it was part of a series of Tekno/Shorty strips) Who did you think it was? Shorty wasn't "Sonic style". He was Rob Corona's funny-animal style, which looks different to how the Sonic characters were designed for Sega's boxart. I don't know why you're talking about "Sonic style" for Shorty. |
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 9, 2010 0:02:10 GMT
That's the problem, I didn't know it was Shorty until he transformed... Really? His name's stated in panel 1 and he responds to a report on Shorty by saying "I". (Plus, it mentioned it was him in the Control Zone and it was part of a series of Tekno/Shorty strips) Who did you think it was? When I saw it I was confused about it. He just didn't look like Shorty, aside from his color. Shorty wasn't "Sonic style". He was Rob Corona's funny-animal style, which looks different to how the Sonic characters were designed for Sega's boxart. I don't know why you're talking about "Sonic style" for Shorty. The story he was listed in was called 'Sonic's world' so maybe I got the idea from that? Several of the animals in the old SC comics don't look like the characters in the boxart, they looked more like the animals in the concept art. Shorty doesn't look anything like that. He doesn't even look like the funny animal style, actually. He just looks really creepy, generic anime style. It looked even creepier on Sonic, Amy and Tekno in that comic where all those villains attempt robbing a bank and fail. |
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Post by Charles on May 9, 2010 0:12:09 GMT
The story he was listed in was called 'Sonic's world' so maybe I got the idea from that? So there, it's "Sonic style" simply because it's got "Sonic" in the title even though the art style does not resemble the Sega model sheet art - i.e., the actual Sonic style? |
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Post by The KKM on May 9, 2010 0:55:09 GMT
Aria, just admit your argument holds no water. You can't honestly look at Plunder, Grimer, hell, pratically any huge-eyebrowed, triangle-chinned creature Elson did, then look at Sonic, then look at the Vegetables from that OOER story, then look at Millar's art, and say "this is all the same style!", and then come and "urk guys this is awful" on a fancomic. In fact, I'd say StC-O has kept a more consisntant style compared to StC.
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Aria
Big Time Boomer
One of few stars and many words.
Posts: 410
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Post by Aria on May 9, 2010 2:04:17 GMT
Aria, just admit your argument holds no water. You can't honestly look at Plunder, Grimer, hell, pratically any huge-eyebrowed, triangle-chinned creature Elson did, then look at Sonic, then look at the Vegetables from that OOER story, then look at Millar's art, and say "this is all the same style!", and then come and "urk guys this is awful" on a fancomic. In fact, I'd say StC-O has kept a more consisntant style compared to StC. Don't tell me an argument holds no water when yours is pretty pointless. The day someone tries to make Sonic look like Captain Plunder (In an actual issue, with no explanation, that is serious just in case someone wants to make a wise crack) will be the day I point it out. Until then...  Because that isn't totally creepy. FYI, Sonic has five fingers. |
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Post by Tom J on May 9, 2010 2:17:43 GMT
"is this the situation involving a group of attacking the metropolis central bank?"
A GROUP OF .
what brilliant proofreading
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on May 9, 2010 12:40:05 GMT
Granted, its not how I would draw these characters but they are are still recognisable as they characters they are... I don't understand how beyond personal taste this is a problem. I didn't like some of the art in later STC issues but I knew it was my personal taste that disagreed with it. The characters themselves still were obviously recognisable.  As Charles said, STC never subscribed to a model sheet, the artists were pretty much given free reign. Why would that change for an unofficial continuation? |
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Post by Charles on May 9, 2010 12:56:51 GMT
You can't honestly look at Plunder, Grimer, hell, pratically any huge-eyebrowed, triangle-chinned creature Elson did, then look at Sonic, then look at the Vegetables from that OOER story, then look at Millar's art, and say "this is all the same style!", and then come and "urk guys this is awful" on a fancomic. And then there's McMahon, Kitching's own art, Dobbyn, Carl Flint... I could just "McMahon", really. Because that isn't totally creepy. Characters being drawn a bit taller than normal is creepy? |
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Post by Mark on May 9, 2010 13:47:38 GMT
Stuff about Style Creepy FYI, Sonic has five fingers.  Some official material dictates he had 4. The design was more lax back then because it's a cartoon character. And before you say "yeah, but that's AoSth, it's a cartoon and not canon" Sega had to check the character designs in order to ensure their characters were being represented right, so they approved 4-fingered Sonic. They also would have happened to check over STC, and they approved that as well. Not that I'm trying to argue, because in most other cases Sonic has 5. Point I'm trying to make is that it's forgivable to draw Sonic slightly varying in one issue. Hell, in fact looking at all the different variations of even just Classic Sonic:     And even look at the style which you call the "correct" style, even that's not 100% fixed. 1999, 2008. There's room for differences.   There's tons of variations, but you can still tell they're Sonic. As long as the character retains all the basic features of the character there's always room for a little deviation. Sonic's not exactly incorrectly represented in STC or STCO, in fact I'm sure it probably prides it's self in the many different styles, it allows for some artistic expression and varying styles will probably fit the stories better. For example, all the artists can do action stories, but Adamis might be given more light-hearted stories in some cases because of the fact his art can come off as very light and action-packed, however, if you're doing a more gritty story, you might get Smithy to do it because of how his style looks, somewhat serious with differently proportioned characters to give a better sense of the story. Long as you can tell who they are then why keep to a completely uniform style all the time? This is what is essentially being advocated if there was one, immovable, fixed style:  Doesn't really scream "apt situations" at me. |
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Post by Nam on May 9, 2010 14:39:39 GMT
STC:O has had some art that exactly mirrors SegaSonic so well you'd think it was drawn by the team that worked on SonicX. It's also had art which while not being close to the SegaSonic style, is very close to the art seen in the original STC. It's also had some art which has been neither. I can see what Aria's getting at, a lot of STC art doesn't confirm to the default style template for Sonic characters like it does in a lot of other Sonic sources.  it's not perfect, but this was done in Paint, and I'm no artistMost Sonic characters conform to this style. This is true for most the games cast, though the females are skinnier, and they have there own individual traits, but you could use the above as a guideline to draw just about any of the regular cast save for Vector, Big, Storm, or any of the robots. Most characters made for other canons, such as Manic and Sonia from SU, and nearly all of Archie's cast also abide by this as a guideline. STC is, and always has been the exception. A lot of the non Sega cast don't match that template (almost to the point where just the games cast are the only ones who run around naked, and are that short. But this is because STC was never strict about it's art. It was much more relaxed, so long as it was obvious who was who, nobody really cared if Sonic had three fingers, or four, or which way his spines faced. This is something that has continued onto STC-O, with the editors not really being too strict on the art, what with it being something done in people's spare time, by people who's primary art style doesn't necessarily compliment the Sega-Sonic art style. Some artists can and do stick to the SegaSonic style, others are trying to emulate the STC-O style, and a few others just want to stylise it there own way, and nobodies fussed. Personally I was always annoyed as a kid that a lot of the STC animals looked nothing like how the above template dictates what a Mobian should look like, but when it comes to things like this, on an online comic made for free, in people's spare time, you've really got to just learn to let it go, and not let it bother you. I mean sure, if you think you can do a better job, go for it, but really, STC;O's non-consistency, is consistent to the spirit of the original STC. |
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Post by madhair60 on May 9, 2010 21:14:36 GMT
I am... genuinely angry at the BS on this page. Not from Aria, mind you. Just the absolute contempt being shown to others, the complete disrespect and disregard for our [censored]ing intelligence. It's ludicrous nobody has called it out. Absolutely [censored]ing ludicrous. There's no way the folks responsible don't know, and no way nobody has noticed.
I know, it's a Sonic forum. It doesn't matter, I get that. No need to remind me. Shouldn't bother me, but it has.
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There are some pretty terrible looking STC art styles as well. (I can't find the issue, but look at one of Tails' stories where he saves the kids. Look at Issue 15 as well)
His name's stated in panel 1 and he responds to a report on Shorty by saying "I". (Plus, it mentioned it was him in the Control Zone and it was part of a series of Tekno/Shorty strips) Who did you think it was?
