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Post by Nam on Sept 25, 2012 22:09:57 GMT
Okay, so there's been a bit of talk here and there about how to make STC-O better amongst staff. But what do the regular readers think?
What sort of changes should be made to the comic? Are there any things you'd like to see changed or improved, or maybe even bring back some old features? Maybe you've got a good idea for a feature we could use, or can give some useful feedback on how to make the website itself better, or have spotted a bug nobody seems to know about?
Any general ideas are accepted. Just don't ask us to update faster. It's hard to draw fast.
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Adamis
Artist Hume
Yay
Posts: 1,339
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Post by Adamis on Sept 25, 2012 22:23:41 GMT
The return of the little head on the covers. Pete and I did a few ones and they've never been used.
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Post by Arch on Sept 26, 2012 10:36:27 GMT
The return of the little head on the covers. Pete and I did a few ones and they've never been used. This every time. I seem to remember a poll over whether or not to keep them and I thought 'keep' won. Either way, it doesn't feel like STC without them. Like I said in the other thread (and I've said before) - more features. I know most of classic STC's features could be done better somewhere else but that shouldn't matter. It's STC we're reading and it should feel a bit more like it: * News Zone - perhaps preview an upcoming Sonic game, like (in this issue) All-Star Racing Transformed. Say what we know about it so far, try and sell it even if nobody on the staff really wants to play it. You're not a Sega comic anymore but you are a Sonic comic. * Q Zone - pretty pointless, yeah, but it's still good fun. I've enjoyed the few Q Zones we've had so far. Retro's "how to play as Sonic in SSBB" was a great idea and I liked Stu's special Q Zone covering a few old games. There's nothing wrong with setting aside a little bit of space to explain how to get through the tough bits of the newest Sega games. * Speedlines - already mentioned by everyone in the main thread, but collate some responses from everywhere. Heck, make stuff up - we all know they did in the past. * Control Zone - include more links to STC alumni stuff or at least mention what's going on. * Graphic Zone - sure we've got a Graphic Zone here but hardly anyone visits it. Some of my favourite features in STC-O have been where you've invited people to draw something from a theme, then the next issue sees that 8-10 people have sent in brilliant pictures for that. Not necessarily brilliant pictures either. Just post them all up. * More behind the scenes stuff - if you have any * Review Zone - bring back the scores please. Even if they are pointless, the review feels empty without them. * Data Strip - not really. I'll save the rest for other people... |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Sept 26, 2012 10:57:19 GMT
This every time. I seem to remember a poll over whether or not to keep them and I thought 'keep' won. Either way, it doesn't feel like STC without them. Yeah, I agree - even if the same ones are used a few times, it was still a very "STC thing" to have those little byline-photo thingies... There is a wealth of Youtube video guides on games and stuff, perhaps something like that for a "modern" Q Zone would work? I know this will take a lot of time and effort but could it be worth a shot?  Yes. The Raves and Graves, even with the old school photos, is great but we need an overall score as well, please.  Enyclopedia Badnika was kinda funny, and it seemed relevant to the current STCO universe's environment. The tickerbox is great as well. |
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Post by madhair60 on Sept 26, 2012 16:09:34 GMT
A complete overhaul of the staff, and a relaunch. You know what, just give it to me.
I could go into detail here, staggering detail, but experience has shown me it's a waste of time as long as the tip-top staff remain tip-top. There's a massive, bitter blot of fail ruining the whole thing. The last issue was almost a complete write-off. I liked the Death Egg story, wish it had been one part. It was proper STC. You know, fun writing? And the rest of the comic filled me with apathy, because it was exactly the same as any other Deviantart piece of [censored] fancomic, with ugly [censored]ing fancharacters and WORDSWORDSWORDS and inflated self-importance and absolutely random [censored]ing characterisation.
But, yes, no, either stop doing it or almost completely replace the staff. Without a hint of exaggeration or arrogance, I could fix it in two issues, if I had the chance. I would do so without malice, or rudeness, just efficiency and good decisions.
Also, stop being [censored]s to the artists/writers, that's another [censored]ing good idea. You know who you are.
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Post by Alex on Sept 26, 2012 17:53:16 GMT
Despite the blunt and harsh way Stu's put his point across, he's not really wrong. A fresh approach would do wonders for the comic. I guess the problem is, though, that although the production at the top is completely cliquey, this is still a voluntary fan production. That kinda clique is practically necessary to ensure people can come together to get [censored] done.
It's easy enough to say "bring in new people" when that can be done in a professional sense using money. Not so easy when it involves getting people to be bothered to do something in their free time.
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Post by madhair60 on Sept 26, 2012 18:47:30 GMT
Well, I'm assuming (accurately) that the writers/artists are just left to get on with it, basically. That's why the tone of the comic is all over the place. The comedic touch of old STC is almost completely gone, too. Everyone's stuff has to be the most EPIC and as a result it's all a complete wash.
This may seem like awful advice, but really, write for your readers, not yourselves.
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Post by patches on Sept 26, 2012 19:35:30 GMT
I'm going to politely disagree with you here Stu- the old STC managed... um... 'EPIC' quite well I thought- I was one of the older readers of the comic, and that's why I liked it so much: even the complete one issue stories felt like the were building towards some greater conclusion... well, most of them did, anyway! I think if the comic was just full of light hearted, single issue stories, it would be the poorer for it. I understand you don't want melodrama (that's fair enough, neither do I), but I don't want something akin to the Beano or the Dandy (and I love them for all their lightheartedness and fun, but thats not why I liked STC)- I would get bored and stop reading pretty quickly. I think somewhere in between is probably what we're looking for? However I do think the current number of characters and story lines are a problem- I think there are too many for a comic that only comes out every few months. It's physically hard to remember who everyone is, and what they were doing last time we visited them. I think the number of characters would be fine if the circulation was every two weeks as it used to be, but obviously for a fan comic that's just not possible, so perhaps streamlining the cast would be a good starting point? My worry is that there are so many characters now the comic will start to drag a little in pace, as it will take so long for each of their stories to finish. I really like the current underlying story of impending doom- how only two of the characters (Silver and Blaze) know something terrible will happen in the future unless something is done, but no-one yet knows the sequence of events that need to be altered to prevent it. It's the sort of theme that can run for ages, as long as we kept being fed snippets of information about it, but can be kept in the background while other more complete stories go on around it. It's going to need careful planning though! I hope this isn't too harsh- I genuinely love the comic and the effort everyone goes to, but I thought I'd just add my thoughts, and maybe a counter argument to Stu's - variety is the spice of life and all that... P.S. I completely agree with Adamis et al... please bring back the little character heads on the front cover! |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Sept 26, 2012 20:18:42 GMT
If we're talking big stuff, I would agree there are a lot of ambitious things going on, a lot of new characters and a lot of plots going on all at once. It must be difficult to control. :/
But I am aware that the strips and features are planned in advance, so it must also be difficult to make last minute changes...
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Post by patches on Sept 26, 2012 20:33:20 GMT
Yeah... it's a lot of eggs to hold in one basket!
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Adamis
Artist Hume
Yay
Posts: 1,339
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Post by Adamis on Sept 26, 2012 22:00:28 GMT
Well, I'm assuming (accurately) that the writers/artists are just left to get on with it, basically. That's why the tone of the comic is all over the place. The comedic touch of old STC is almost completely gone, too. Everyone's stuff has to be the most EPIC and as a result it's all a complete wash. You will not say that for the next issue |
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Sept 26, 2012 22:34:53 GMT
Maybe don't be ahead by about fifty issues script-wise if the art will take ages. It's good to have a buffer, but whatever feedback you take on now won't be seen in the comic for probably (at least) three years. Just bear that in mind.
I think the most important thing to freshen up STC-O is, as I've said before, work within the medium you're using. You aren't a print comic, use the magical power of the internet. You can throw in dozens of features that would never have been possible in the original STC.
Toying with the page count has worked really well lately. How about toying with the story count? Dare I say it... how about running stories when they're done and collecting them into "issues" later? Say, for example, a Sonic story is ready to go. So up goes issue 2XX with just that story. A month later, Tails' story is done and is added to issue 2XX and so forth until there are four stories per issue with, naturally, Sonic's always being the first to be online- and if more than one story is ready to go, even better. It allows a more steady stream of stories to come to your followers and allows your writers and artists to get feedback that bit quicker. And it would probably encourage non-regulars to check back more frequently too.
Oh, and, there are too many characters and plot threads, but you knew that already.
I am deeply concerned that everyone thinks I'm "that bloke that grumbles about everything"!
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Post by Super Sonic on Sept 27, 2012 8:39:13 GMT
I am deeply concerned that everyone thinks I'm "that bloke that grumbles about everything"! I don't think you need to be concerned about that at all. |
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Post by Mambo's Here! Look Busy! on Sept 27, 2012 9:00:17 GMT
Yeah. We're Sonic fans. Everyone knows we're miserable!
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Post by Supermorff on Sept 27, 2012 13:59:55 GMT
Toying with the page count has worked really well lately. How about toying with the story count? Dare I say it... how about running stories when they're done and collecting them into "issues" later? Say, for example, a Sonic story is ready to go. So up goes issue 2XX with just that story. A month later, Tails' story is done and is added to issue 2XX and so forth until there are four stories per issue with, naturally, Sonic's always being the first to be online- and if more than one story is ready to go, even better. It allows a more steady stream of stories to come to your followers and allows your writers and artists to get feedback that bit quicker. And it would probably encourage non-regulars to check back more frequently too. It wouldn't have occurred to me, but this is actually a really good idea. With most webcomics I check them every couple of days, even the ones that only do a single page every few weeks or so. I never bother to check STC-O; I only ever learn of new issues from coming on this forum. Even though the quantity of content is comparable, the fact that all the STC-O stories are saved up for a massive burst makes me as a reader less involved and less interested. Maybe don't be ahead by about fifty issues script-wise if the art will take ages. It's good to have a buffer, but whatever feedback you take on now won't be seen in the comic for probably (at least) three years. Just bear that in mind. Also good point. Scripts can be turned around much faster than the art. That's why (as I understand it) you've got such a backlog of scripts. Do the writers write whatever they want and then when an artist comes along you say "These are the scripts that are available?" It would be much better to write for (or, better yet, with) the artists. Find an artist willing to work, then write a story for them that they want to draw, that will keep them interested. STC's best work came out of the collaborations between Nigel/Rich and Nigel/Nigel. Oh, and, there are too many characters and plot threads, but you knew that already. This falls out of the other points. If you weren't so ahead on scripts and behind on art, there wouldn't be so many unresolved plot threads for so long. If you updated more regularly (even with less content each time) it wouldn't matter so much. |
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Post by Michael on Sept 27, 2012 16:40:14 GMT
Also good point. Scripts can be turned around much faster than the art. That's why (as I understand it) you've got such a backlog of scripts. Do the writers write whatever they want and then when an artist comes along you say "These are the scripts that are available?" It would be much better to write for (or, better yet, with) the artists. Find an artist willing to work, then write a story for them that they want to draw, that will keep them interested. STC's best work came out of the collaborations between Nigel/Rich and Nigel/Nigel. We do both. Unfortunately sometimes delays still happen even when writer and artist work on the story together. It's unfortunate, and it gives us all headaches, but sometimes we just have to roll with it and try to have more contingency plans in future..  I'm really liking the polite, balanced comments/ideas/criticisms in this thread; please keep 'em coming! |
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Sept 29, 2012 19:34:17 GMT
I am perfectly content with how the strip is. I won't complain about the length between issues because really, this is high quality artwork for free (no salary, no advertisements, no anything, 100% free), so I'd find that rude of me.
Though since I never read the strips in my youth (understandably, kind of stuck across the Atlantic), I naturally don't have that same nostalgic feeling others do for many of the originals' features.
I wouldn't mind Sonic-related news in each issue though, games and such.
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Post by WinterFlames on Sept 29, 2012 20:16:34 GMT
A complete overhaul of the staff, and a relaunch. You know what, just give it to me. I could go into detail here, staggering detail, but experience has shown me it's a waste of time as long as the tip-top staff remain tip-top. There's a massive, bitter blot of fail ruining the whole thing. The last issue was almost a complete write-off. I liked the Death Egg story, wish it had been one part. It was proper STC. You know, fun writing? And the rest of the comic filled me with apathy, because it was exactly the same as any other Deviantart piece of [censored] fancomic, with ugly [censored]ing fancharacters and WORDSWORDSWORDS and inflated self-importance and absolutely random [censored]ing characterisation. Despite the blunt and harsh way Stu's put his point across, he's not really wrong. A fresh approach would do wonders for the comic. I guess the problem is, though, that although the production at the top is completely cliquey, this is still a voluntary fan production. That kinda clique is practically necessary to ensure people can come together to get [censored] done. It's easy enough to say "bring in new people" when that can be done in a professional sense using money. Not so easy when it involves getting people to be bothered to do something in their free time. Well, I'm assuming (accurately) that the writers/artists are just left to get on with it, basically. That's why the tone of the comic is all over the place. The comedic touch of old STC is almost completely gone, too. Everyone's stuff has to be the most EPIC and as a result it's all a complete wash. This may seem like awful advice, but really, write for your readers, not yourselves. Yep... Trying to think of something to contribute to this, but there's nothing I can think of. Stu's last post is really the biggest complaint I have myself, but I do think all of Stu's complaints have some merit, and Alex is pretty spot on with my thoughts too. |
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Post by madhair60 on Sept 30, 2012 10:51:00 GMT
That kinda clique is practically necessary to ensure people can come together to get [censored] done. And yet, they don't. I won't complain about the length between issues because really, this is high quality artwork for free (no salary, no advertisements, no anything, 100% free), so I'd find that rude of me. Man, the internet is spilling over with high quality free artwork (see DevArt, every webcomic ever, etc), and yet there is still criticism of it because that is not how the creative world works. What you are saying is "let the baby have his bottle" which is deeply, deeply unhelpful. |
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Post by Balls on Sept 30, 2012 12:12:11 GMT
I agree, [censored] babies.
CONTRIBUTION
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dk
Big Time Boomer
Posts: 148
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Post by dk on Sept 30, 2012 19:22:09 GMT
I think the comic would benefit from not sticking so rigidly to the format of the print strip. One of the main benefits of being a web-based comic is that you aren't subject to the same practical restrictions as print media. There's really no reason to adhere to the formula of issues of four strips of seven pages/five pages other than nostalgia. The length of a strip should be dictated by the script, not vice versa - if a story is only a dozen panels long, run with that rather than stretching it out to five pages.
I'm not sure how open you are to the idea of totally overhauling your publication schedule but what about the idea of publishing a page from each strip on a staggered schedule? E.g. you could have a page of the Sonic strip coming out every second Monday, a page of the Sonic's World strip coming out every second Wednesday, etc. Done properly, you could have two or three pages of artwork being released each week. I think this'd be more effective than simply releasing everything together when absolutely everything is ready. You could of course still give readers the ability to read a strip page-by-page - that's one of the benefits of being a webcomic.
I admire the commitment to recreating the feel of the original STC but ultimately if you don't embrace the flexibility that being a webcomic allows then you're forfeiting one of the main benefits of the medium.
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Post by madhair60 on Sept 30, 2012 20:12:35 GMT
Thing is, that would be exactly the same as everything else on the internet.
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Post by The Stiv™ on Sept 30, 2012 20:16:15 GMT
We've already started playing with the page count, that'll continue. If things get bad for a particular issue, we might also consider playing with the strip count too. But dropping it to three, not bringing it up to five.
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Post by ShayMay on Oct 1, 2012 0:03:32 GMT
The schedule is definitely the first thing to fix. Those that update every Monday-Wednesday-Friday will get around 24 pages out every two months. One issue of Sonic the Comic is around 21 pages (with the traditional 7-5-5-5 format), and that's usually one every four months, and that's generous.
Considering the fact that STC-O has multiple artists, I don't think there's any excuse for the comic to not update once every two months. If that seems steep to some, I'm afraid that's a part of being on a free webcomic: the first prerequisite (before even, judging by some of the dross on the internet, writing and artistic talent) is spare time.
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Post by Tanner / Ogilvie on Oct 1, 2012 4:16:13 GMT
Oh, I'd be delighted if the comic updated more regularly. I just feel it would be rude and pompous of me to really suggest it, since this is entirely out of spare time and for no compensation at all (in fact, it's a net loss financially to boot, from what I've heard), so I'm naturally not too direct about such a desire.
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