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Post by Alex on Sept 4, 2007 19:22:04 GMT
Looks like another awesome Zelda game I'll love to bits, buy instantly and get stuck on after an hour's play, leave for several months and eventually just use a walkthrough to beat. And this time multiplayer too! Awesumnitude. *wonders if there's a game Pombar doesn't suck at*
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Matt Parkman lives!
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 4, 2007 21:16:48 GMT
ganon sucked in tp, the game basically undid all the good character development and more complex motivations from ww and replaced it with "mwwwhhhaaaa destroy" and I still don't have a clue what was going on after you beat ganon at the end.
its not worth going over the time line thing in my opinion because only a few games follow on from each other in a meaningful way, first you have ocarina of time which is followed by majoras mask, then you have a link to the past but you also have the ww and tp in alternate timelines and no mention of a link to the past in them so you have to assume that it happened after them, but it couldnt have because the ganon in a link to the past was sealed away by ot link and hadn't escaped yet, links awakening follows AlTtp and then you have the original zelda and zelda 2. the start is clear as is the end but in between it makes no sense with all sorts of alternate timelines and possible retcons combined with just making it up as they go along, and thats even before you get to the oracle games, minish cap and the four swords adventures which completely ignores every zelda that goes before it. I find that it is best to just treat each game as a separate entity unless explicitly said by the makers of the games.
oh and every zelda apart from zelda 2 >>>> tp
*runs away before forum members start to throw things*
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Post by Pombar on Sept 4, 2007 21:32:04 GMT
*wonders if there's a game Pombar doesn't suck at* I play a mean game of Tetris.
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Post by Alex on Sept 4, 2007 21:45:45 GMT
£10 says I'd kick your ass at Tetris DS.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 4, 2007 22:09:26 GMT
You're on.
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Post by Warped‽‽‽ on Sept 5, 2007 11:17:16 GMT
ganon sucked in tp, the game basically undid all the good character development and more complex motivations from ww and replaced it with "mwwwhhhaaaa destroy" and I still don't have a clue what was going on after you beat ganon at the end. its not worth going over the time line thing in my opinion because only a few games follow on from each other in a meaningful way, first you have ocarina of time which is followed by majoras mask, then you have a link to the past but you also have the ww and tp in alternate timelines and no mention of a link to the past in them so you have to assume that it happened after them, but it couldnt have because the ganon in a link to the past was sealed away by ot link and hadn't escaped yet, links awakening follows AlTtp and then you have the original zelda and zelda 2. the start is clear as is the end but in between it makes no sense with all sorts of alternate timelines and possible retcons combined with just making it up as they go along, and thats even before you get to the oracle games, minish cap and the four swords adventures which completely ignores every zelda that goes before it. I find that it is best to just treat each game as a separate entity unless explicitly said by the makers of the games. oh and every zelda apart from zelda 2 >>>> tp *runs away before forum members start to throw things* "Mwahahaha destroy!!" IS Ganon though. Hence Triforce of Power. You're either his slave, his fearful subjects, or dead. (Or Link I suppose) The attempt at character development in WW was interesting, but wasn't right AT ALL. He still wanted to destory/rule everything by un-flooding Hyrule, it was just hidden in a weird guise of "The wind makes me sad ;_;" To that I say, shu'up Emo-dorf, and bring back my BEAST-GANON from OOT. Which they did, nearly.
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Post by Baxter on Sept 5, 2007 11:20:39 GMT
oh and every zelda apart from zelda 2 >>>> tp *runs away before forum members start to throw things* And the CDi ones. If they even deserve to be classified as Zelda games.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 5, 2007 12:53:34 GMT
Whining about crappy story in a Zelda game is rather like whining about the lack of turn based battles in Sonic 2. A good story and Zelda have rarely gone together. Wind Waker is the one game that threatened this, but even then it was hardly of the standard Zelda games could be. But then, that's more my complaint with the game series than with any specific game.
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Matt Parkman lives!
Big Time Boomer
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 5, 2007 14:41:09 GMT
warped you will forgive me if I prefer villains to have at least a tiny bit of depth to them.
there are 4 good stories in zelda , majoras mask, links awakening, wind waker, ocarina of time. in that order.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 5, 2007 14:48:18 GMT
They're nice stories, and definitely explain the action well enough. But they're hardly great stories on, say, the scale of depth or complexity of most games in the RPG genre these days. It'd be nice if they shook off the overly simplistic storyline that burdens each game and went for something really ambitious, lots of twists and turns and that sort of thing. Though that's kinda hard if the villain, hero & princess are always the same. Still, it'd be nice if they aimed for that. Surprisingly it was the one most often seen as the most chioldish which actually seemed to be trying to break convention, for a while at least.
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Matt Parkman lives!
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 5, 2007 14:54:41 GMT
problem is twilight princess did go for the big epic story with lots of twists and turns and more complex motivations, and it failed spectacularly. nintendo make a good game but a great story? never heard one from them, I would suggest that they talk to squareenix but after the abysmal story in ff12 I don't know where they could go.
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Post by Baxter on Sept 5, 2007 15:01:24 GMT
nintendo make a good game but a great story? never heard one from them You know, that's never actually crossed my mind until now. Granted, the majority of their franchises - Mario, Wario Ware etc. - can survive without particularly strong or complex storylines and characterisation, but you think they'd go the extra mile for titles such as Zelda.
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Post by Samface on Sept 5, 2007 15:04:08 GMT
The Metroid games have a fairly robust story, don't they? I might be wrong, I've not played them much.
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Matt Parkman lives!
Big Time Boomer
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 5, 2007 15:10:56 GMT
The Metroid games have a fairly robust story, don't they? I might be wrong, I've not played them much. not really most of the time it gives you a mission briefing and throws you into the game with only the mission success at the end as any kind of story. recently metroid fusion had a story running during the game and metroid prime 1-2 tell their story through scanned text but not actual characters, the new prime has lots of characters in it though apparently.
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Pitt
Script Hume
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Post by Pitt on Sept 5, 2007 16:16:48 GMT
Is there anywhere in the Gerudo desert temple where I can procure a ready supply of bombs? I've run out, you see, and can't quite best a trio of skeletons in a particular chamber.
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Post by Warped‽‽‽ on Sept 5, 2007 16:36:24 GMT
problem is twilight princess did go for the big epic story with lots of twists and turns and more complex motivations, and it failed spectacularly. This I agree with. The plot was pretty obvious to anyone who'd played OOT/WW. Also, the plotline to the Metroid games I'd say is better because it's at least all set in the same universe (as far as I know). I also like the plot coming out via scanning to be honest. Or didn't mind it at least. And Shaz, I think if you keep running about between room so enemies respawn you should eventually find some bombs maybe?
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Matt Parkman lives!
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 5, 2007 16:44:31 GMT
Is there anywhere in the Gerudo desert temple where I can procure a ready supply of bombs? I've run out, you see, and can't quite best a trio of skeletons in a particular chamber. you can get a bigger bomb bag by beating the river rapid game, or by blowing up the moving rock at the bottom of the spring in zora palace. oh I didn't mind it either just saying metroid games never have much of a plot, even in prime you never have to pay attention to the plot I mean you know what is essential for scanning because it shows up in red so you can ignore everything else.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 5, 2007 17:55:09 GMT
FF12 had a spectacular plot, but only for those actually interested in intrigues and a more politically charged storyline than most games attempt - obviously not a great deal of the FF audience who've grown up with epic stories backed up by heroic highly powerful characters who're important to the storyline, world-scale threats and constant character development and interaction. Which FF12 dodged, sadly.
Fusion had a great plot for a short, 2D action sidescroller, I thought. If they got the Fusion team on the next 2D Zelda... *drool*
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Pitt
Script Hume
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If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
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Post by Pitt on Sept 5, 2007 18:24:46 GMT
FF12 had a spectacular plot, but only for those actually interested in intrigues and a more politically charged storyline than most games attempt Thus, I thought it was one of the best stories ever in any video game. Ever.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 5, 2007 18:26:54 GMT
Sure, and my brother and one of my best friends entirely agree with you. But then I also have friends who sold it, some having completed it, some not having done so, agreeing that it was the worst thing to happen to Final Fantasy since 2's botched experience system.
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Sept 5, 2007 19:07:30 GMT
If they could manage to completely meld the political intrigue and military engagements of XII with... what VII had, that would be a really great plot.
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Post by Pombar on Sept 5, 2007 19:32:46 GMT
Not even military engagements. Just a worldwide threat more epic and intimidating than one civilisation conquering another. FF7 started with one country/organisation taking over the world, and soon went beyond that, with huge barely stoppable monsters wreaking havoc on the world, and even they were only the weapon used by the all-poweful 'terror from the skies' that wiped out the ancients, and her genetic 'son', the invincible and mystically powered super-soldier. It's that kinda thing which make it epic, and while, sure, they break with any rational sense of scale and certainly stretch believability, they're kinda what makes it Final Fantasy. It's 'fantastic' in both the senses of that word.
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Post by Zerolus on Sept 5, 2007 20:11:48 GMT
its not worth going over the time line thing in my opinion because only a few games follow on from each other in a meaningful way, first you have ocarina of time which is followed by majoras mask, then you have a link to the past but you also have the ww and tp in alternate timelines and no mention of a link to the past in them so you have to assume that it happened after them, but it couldnt have because the ganon in a link to the past was sealed away by ot link and hadn't escaped yet, links awakening follows AlTtp and then you have the original zelda and zelda 2. the start is clear as is the end but in between it makes no sense with all sorts of alternate timelines and possible retcons combined with just making it up as they go along, and thats even before you get to the oracle games, minish cap and the four swords adventures which completely ignores every zelda that goes before it. I find that it is best to just treat each game as a separate entity unless explicitly said by the makers of the games. And it's never occurred to you that Wind Waker best fits in between OoT and ALttP? In Ocarina, Ganondorf is extremely arrogant and thinks he is unbeatable. Then the Hero of Time gives him a rude awakening and he's been contemplating his defeat ever since. He still wants revenge, naturally, but he's learned not to be overconfident or unnecessarily brutal, as though trying to teach himself wisdom so he can touch the Triforce without it separating again. But then Daphnes beats him at the last second, and for Ganon it all goes to [censored] from there. Hence why he's an insane pig monster in ALttP. I came up with the theory that TP was set in between OoT and WW, as Ganon was still the brute force aggressor guy, but the Triforce of Power was in his possession. I quite liked the idea because it was Ganon from Ocarina repeating his mistakes all over again, and after being beaten a second time only then does the realization that being a egostitical brute won't get him what he wants smack him across the face. I still remain fairly attatched to the idea, despite what Aonuma said. The thing is, I never really fogot that during the years waiting for TP to come out, he didn't seem to be able to make up his mind on wether TP was set before or after Wind Waker. Now he tells us it's set at the same time as Wind Waker, but in different reality. I find it hard to take him seriously. If he says that the upcoming Wii Zelda is set in between WW and ALttP, then tells us its set after TP, then tells us it's set at the same time as WW and TP in a third timeline once it comes out, I'm going to urinate on his house. On the front door. On the door handle. Of course, we could all avoid this speculation and debating by going for what a few fans go for in that all the games stories are just retelling's of the same story concering a Hero, a princess, the Great King of Evil, and how they are connected through the Triforce, but where's the fun in that? The attempt at character development in WW was interesting, but wasn't right AT ALL. He still wanted to destory/rule everything by un-flooding Hyrule, it was just hidden in a weird guise of "The wind makes me sad ;_;" He didn't want to destroy anything. And he was using the wind as poetic symbolisim to the harsh life he had growing up in the desert, and how he had desired Hyrule because it seemed like a paradise in comparision. It was just those few lines there which gave us insight to his psyche and motivations. A lot of people say he loved the land but envied, and therefore hated, the people. And it makes sense: In OoT, you only saw suffering in civillised areas. Hyrule Field was actually fairly blissful and not the wasteland I was expecting it to be. Woah there, Ganon may have been angsting a little bit, but he certainly wasn't emo. Not by a long shot.
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Matt Parkman lives!
Big Time Boomer
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Post by Matt Parkman lives! on Sept 5, 2007 20:56:46 GMT
And it's never occurred to you that Wind Waker best fits in between OoT and ALttP? the story of AlTtp clearly states that ganon was sealed away and that he had been working to escape ever since so ww has to come after it, but other things suggest that it doesn't so like I said its best to take them all separate unless stated. OoT, MM. AlTtp, LA. zelda1, zelda2. seasons,ages. even if you do try to put them in an order how do you decide what games go in the list and which don't? the games contradict each other so much that it just isn't possible.
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Post by Zerolus on Sept 5, 2007 21:24:39 GMT
the story of AlTtp clearly states that ganon was sealed away and that he had been working to escape ever since so ww has to come after it, but other things suggest that it doesn't so like I said its best to take them all separate unless stated. How does Wind Waker have to come after it? In ALttP Ganon has the whole Triforce, yet at the end of Ocarina, he only has the Triforce of Power. Plus you never see him in human form in ALttP, yet he was human right at the end of OoT. Win Waker bridges half of the gap though. He's in human form, has the Triforce of Power and there are clear references to Ocarina, but no references to ALttP. That rather heavily implies that Wind Waker is set in between the two. OBVIOUSLY a lot is going to happen in between Wind Waker and ALttP to bridge the rest of the gap, which I predict (and hope for) be the setting for a plot in a future Zelda: Ganon breaks free of the stone curse placed upon him by the Master Sword (a new Link removes it in a effort to try and defeat a different evil, for example), gets the full Triforce but goes completly insane somewhere down the line, explaining why he stays as a pig monster in ALttP and is sealed back in the Sacred Realm, therefore setting the stage for ALttP. And also, keep in mind ALttP was made years before WW and even Ocarina, and therefore some of the official plot information IS outdated and shouldn't be counted if newer material is contradictory. I mean, Ganon's monster form in the 'main' games these days is no longer a blue pig standing on two feet, is it?
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