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Post by Pombar on Apr 23, 2008 17:37:18 GMT
Just as well he didn't mention the online, considering that, along with the singleplayer, is considered the weakest part of Brawl... Usual complaints with Nintendo's backwards 1990s online system combined with stupid amount of lag in a game that's meant to be smooth and fun. It was pretty good to have the reviewing so self-aware in this one. I'd not like for it to become a habit, but it was a nice change from pure slagging off in favour of looking at why exactly he doesn't like this game. Rather than just, y'know, bits you can laugh at. More of that next week.
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Post by Warped‽‽‽ on Apr 23, 2008 17:56:35 GMT
So I take it someone's competing for my title of "unofficial self-appointed ZP updater" then? I just happened to watch it earlier in the evening the last couple of weeks to be honest, and then felt the need to comment on it. In reply to the self awareness, I liked the text at the end about the nintendo-fanboys "Writing on their message boards about I'm not a real reviewer"
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Post by Pete on Apr 23, 2008 18:02:02 GMT
So I take it someone's competing for my title of "unofficial self-appointed ZP updater" then? N'ah, you're the official updater.
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Post by Retro on Apr 23, 2008 18:36:42 GMT
So I take it someone's competing for my title of "unofficial self-appointed ZP updater" then? N'ah, you're the official updater. Dammit you beat me by about ten seconds to the idea! I'm going to regret making you a mod someday.
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Post by Alex on Apr 23, 2008 23:32:21 GMT
Nintendo game featuring Nintendo Characters in Nintendo settings with Nintendo music and various other Nintendo nostalgia sells to Nintendo Fanboys Shocker!
Sorry, but this one just sucked. :/ It's one thing to be scathing about a game 'cos there are inherent flaws in it, and another to be scathing about it because of the company that makes it. Nintendo made SSBB for Nintendo fans - their audience isn't people like Yahtzee who apparently dismiss Nintendo entirely as "that system I played when I was 8". As a games reviewer myself, it just stands out as completely wrong the way he's approached this - the only comeback from that being "it's zero punctuation". Which is a bit unfortunate if anyone actually determines whether or not they buy games depending on what he says about them.
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Post by Retro on Apr 24, 2008 0:06:20 GMT
Bear in mind Yahtzee is a gamer who tells us his thoughts more than a "reviewer" despite what the Escapist wants to have us think. That's his review, it's still valid, but to his opinion.
Hell I agree with many points, it's incredibly easy for the sparkly effects to get a little too much at times when you have Sonic flashing spindashes, Fox flaming about, Zelda casting magic and Olimar chucking Pikmin among various items and a moving camera.
I still utterly adore the game down to it's simply awesome gameplay, however did make a very very valid point about having to play through the frankly terrible Subspace Emissary to just get characters. Other methods involving things like classic mode woulda been nicer.
The one about it being fanboyish to Nintendo fans I think was more just his hatred of fanboys in general coming out to play. I don't mind the content in game, but I share that apathy for people who'll go OMFG OMFG OMFG over the tiniest non essential thing.
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Post by Alex on Apr 24, 2008 0:14:41 GMT
I still utterly adore the game down to it's simply awesome gameplay, however did make a very very valid point about having to play through the frankly terrible Subspace Emissary to just get characters. Other methods involving things like classic mode woulda been nicer. There are about 4 methods for unlocking pretty much every character and level - and as far as I remember, every one has an option to completely ignore all single player modes entirely. How much more does the game have to cater to specific tastes? The game has unlockables to extend the play-time and give you a sense of achievement for unlocking them - Yahtzee gets that as he's ripped into other games for NOT having anything unlockable before - so it seems like a really rather stupid point to be making. Considering most of the characters have ridiculously simple unlock methods outside of SSE, there's really bugger all to complain about on that front. In a night of multiplayer games you'll probably unlock the same amount of the cast and levels as you'd unlock playing through SSE.
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Post by Retro on Apr 24, 2008 0:37:17 GMT
How else? Complete 300 brawls? Ridiculous. Something as simple as having "Complete Classic with X character unlocks X character." For some it works, for others, for no reason at all it doesn't. It's just a critical oversight, not everyone wants a 10 hour repeat-a-thon single player trip just to get a few characters in a game bought for it's multiplayer and general brawling.
Unlockables are good, unlockables that contain hyped characters people wish to play as is not good, especially if it's something not so much challenging as just long and boring to get them.
It's not catering to specific tastes, it's just being smart with game design really. They managed it pretty much everywhere else, but dropped it on character unlocking (as before) and on SSE.
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Post by Alex on Apr 24, 2008 0:40:39 GMT
There's still at least one other unlock option other than SSE and Brawling for every character - most of them including completing the Classic mode.
Also, it's a pity that the single-player adventure mode doesn't deliver to everyone the level they were either expecting or Sakurai hoped it would, but it's still part of the game. To complain about being forced to play the game to unlock parts of it is just... asinine. Especially when if you're THAT dead set against it, there are still other options available to you. How many other games would give you a choice of about 4 completely different options catered to each individual taste in how to progress in the game?
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Post by RedsDrive on Apr 24, 2008 0:44:02 GMT
How else? Complete 300 brawls? Ridiculous. As I recall: "Play 5 brawls: Unlock Ness."
I think Marth was like 10. If you're spending a night with friends doing this I can imagine it being quite easy to unlock 1/3 to 1/2 the cast.
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Post by Retro on Apr 24, 2008 0:59:25 GMT
Wolf is either SSE, 450 Brawls or complete Boss Mode (which requires SSE complete to unlock.
Toon Link is SSE, 400 Brawls or complete classic mode after completing SSE.
ROB is SSE, 160 Brawls or 250 different trophies
Mr Game and Watch is SSE, 250 Brawls or target test with 30 characters (Which you'll need time on to unlock)
Jigglypuff is SSE, 350 Brawls or Event mode after SSE is done It's not just a couple, there's a ton of characters who had daft unlocking matters. Just because SSE is part of the game does not excuse idiotic unlockable requirements if it requires you play through rubbish to get to good stuff.
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Post by Pombar on Apr 24, 2008 12:57:31 GMT
His main point is that it's a party game that requires you to spend hours and hours of non-party time to actually make the game good for a party game. It'd be like having the only way to level up in an RPG being playing 4 player shoot 'em up levels - breaking with the genre to allow you to play the full game is stupid. Here it requires you to grind the game for hours on end or play the extensive 1 player mode - since the game's meant to be about dicking about with 4 mates, this totally jars.
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Post by madhair60 on Apr 24, 2008 13:10:19 GMT
Just play as the other characters then
Edit: Nice spoilers up there guys
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Post by Pombar on Apr 24, 2008 13:17:28 GMT
It's a fighting game, what's there to spoil... I daresay we don't play Smash Bros for its riveting narrative or monumental surprises.
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Post by madhair60 on Apr 24, 2008 13:23:03 GMT
Put secret characters/unlockables in spoilers. I know people who are avoiding all info until the game comes out. Don't assume your standards on everyone else, guys.
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Post by Alex on Apr 24, 2008 13:39:21 GMT
If the game had no unlockables, people would complain that there's not enough to do in the game. The game has unlockables (by the bucketload) and people complain that they have to unlock them.
Seriously, what?
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Post by madhair60 on Apr 24, 2008 13:41:38 GMT
If the game had no unlockables, people would complain that there's not enough to do in the game. The game has unlockables (by the bucketload) and people complain that they have to unlock them. Seriously, what? This.
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Post by Pombar on Apr 24, 2008 13:44:23 GMT
I can unlock every character in Soul Blade in an hour of messing with mates. I cannot do this with Smash Bros. But I agree on one level - reviewers complain when there's nothing to unlock as if that makes it purposeless and as if the designers didn't make enough for the game. Yet with unlockables, they find new reasons to moan. I do much prefer unlockables myself, but when they're frustratingly hard to get in regular play, or unlocked in a way that means you have to play alone in a multiplayer game, then that's when they've got it wrong.
And I'd forgotten this thread wasn't the spoiler tagged Smash Bros thread, madhair, sorry.
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Post by Retro on Apr 24, 2008 14:51:23 GMT
Pombar makes the point though. Also considering Brawl has no particular clones anymore (Bar perhaps Toon Link ) it's not so much of "use the alternate character." All of the unlockables bar Toon Link are completely unique, and it's just bizarre to not allow a party game to access them easier. Not everyone wants to be trawling just to get the main game experience. Besides, there's plenty of other unlockables even if characters were easier. Alternate stages and old melee stages come as unlockables as well as the extra create a stage equipment. Extra music is unlocked with events, as are more events. Not to mention the 1000 odd trophies in the game, and stickers. So there not being enough to unlock once characters are shifted to a better method is a bit short sighted. Edit - Bah, saft spoiler tags messing up. Not like a character for a beat em up is a spoiler anyhow.
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Post by Juliett. Bravo. Alfa. on Apr 24, 2008 18:08:33 GMT
To be honest I can see where both camps are coming from. To have to unlock major characters is annoying but locking stuff away is a cheap way to extend a life of a game. But this perhaps wasn't a subtle balance. But, mostly I'm annoyed that Samus and Zero Suit Samus aren't separate characters. And Meta Ridley got shafted again. Christ, I mean the Kirby series got 3 characters in the bloody game and NO ONE likes Kirby. And I don't even like Super Smash Bros. Until they make a Sega one that is. I wonder if we can make Stu think we are talking about Brawl but we really aren't?
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Post by Pombar on Apr 24, 2008 18:33:23 GMT
Um, John. People do like Kirby. His games sell. Also, since Brawl was lead designed by the guy who does the Kirby games - and the SSE story mode is essentially a Kirby game - it's not surprising that there're more Kirby characters than there are Metroid ones. And as has been said before, Ridley would be a stupidly unwieldy character - or have to be shrunk down. He would either be far too overpowered, or, if they removed the god-modding bits, would add nothing to the roster. Metroid's hunter characters, and the SA-X as an alternate costume, would be a more suitable addition to the cast, surely. Popular/main character does not equal good character for Smash Bros.
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Post by madhair60 on Apr 24, 2008 19:53:07 GMT
I agree it could have been less difficult to unlock them, but I don't see the point in complaining about it really...
And I'm pretty sure there are more clones than just the one you mentioned, Retro...
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Post by Ray on Apr 24, 2008 20:05:39 GMT
Nah, not really. And even the one he mentioned has a few different moves.
--Ray
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Post by Retro on Apr 24, 2008 22:49:32 GMT
Popular/main character does not equal good character for Smash Bros. Agreed. Never been one to support Ridley for SSBB. Tons of better ones to be put in really that suit. Krystal with her staff woulda been good, but there's a ton who could or should or maybe. Just gotta look at what is there, and I'm not disappointed in any of them.
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Post by Baron Canier on Apr 25, 2008 8:58:39 GMT
In particular the points about it being primarily a multiplayer game, but you then have to PLAY LOTS to unlock the biggest hyped up characters, at which point you become THAT GUY. I swear I must be the only person who uses nigh-on the entire roster in Smash Bros. games. I've never seen the point of playing solely as Fox or Link or Marth every time you turn the game on. I use everyone, with the single exception of Yoshi. Christ, I mean the Kirby series got 3 characters in the bloody game and NO ONE likes Kirby. Speak for yourself; I love the little guy. Sure, they didn't add any Metroid guys, but that's got nothing to do with Kirby. He's awesome. Ridley will have his day. In regards to the unlock methods, I had to grind aplenty in order to get Melee's final roster because I'm the only person locally who owns the blasted thing.
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