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Post by ShayMay on Jun 11, 2011 11:17:45 GMT
I agree with all of the above. Edit: With Cain, that is. Beaten to it.The only thing I'd want to add to that is the S - I don't think they should mess with the S, at least for Superman. To be honest, I don't mind other Ss (oh wow) for other members of the Super family, it associates yet differentiates them, but Superman's logo is a [censored]ing icon. It'd be like if the Doctor ever fixed the chameleon circuit (I believe there was a Tom Baker story in which he tried to?), it just... wouldn't be right. I say all this in relation to the Blue Superman you posted, rather than to the reboot Superman. Was that Blue Superman actually the mainstream Superman for a while?
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Post by Baron Canier on Jun 11, 2011 11:29:38 GMT
For thirteen months, after which he reverted back to normal. The S emblem in the Superman costume I linked to (the fan-made one, that is. Not Superman-Blue) is actually the one used by Superman in Kingdom Come, so its design is not exactly without precedent. I just really like it, since it's an S without actually being an S. I'll agree with you, to a point. The red broke up the solid blue, gave it a bit of pop. Yeah, there is the colourscheme to consider. But really, the duty of the undies to break up the mass of blue can easily be fulfilled by a belt.
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Post by L. T. Dangerous on Jun 12, 2011 1:03:43 GMT
So I hear Power Girl's getting cancelled. The only non-Batman Family DC comic I read, cancelled. Guys... I think I might be done with DC and it doesn't feel good
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Post by Alex on Jun 12, 2011 1:10:21 GMT
I know a few guys that may help in making you feel better.
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Post by The Shad on Jun 12, 2011 9:47:26 GMT
So I hear Power Girl's getting cancelled. The only non-Batman Family DC comic I read, cancelled. Guys... I think I might be done with DC and it doesn't feel good Power Girl? Why don't you just read some goddamn knitting magazines! Stop being a lousy sissy girly man and read a mans book! He's a man's man! He's a man's man's man! Women want him, men want to be him, government organisations want to control him! But they can't tame the raging hellfire in his heart! And if, even after reading all that manly, you still need more testosterone, try these guys! When the Goon swings his mighty wrench, made with cutting edge technology from the twenties, zombies and extradimensional monsters know to fall down! He'll devour pies like there's no tomorrow! Extort money from small children! Make zombies eat bricks!
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jun 12, 2011 15:51:22 GMT
^^ What are they going to be doing with Ultimate Marvel? I understand that they killed off a lot of name characters in Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum (which I've heard wasn't very well received; I've not read it myself, though, so I imagine it can't have been that bad), so is the universe being rebooted?
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Post by Alex on Jun 12, 2011 17:00:56 GMT
Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum were poorly written and horribly received (and pretty much were that bad) - but the line's been going pretty well for a while since. In fact, the mini-series' in the new 'Ultimate Comics' (post-Ultimatum) have all been fantastic, really. Ultimate Iron Man Armor Wars, Ultimate Cap and Ultimate Thor have all been fantastic runs (and are all available in TPB form now, IIRC) and I'd definitely reccommend them all to anyone vaguely interested in those characters or the Ultimate line. (Ultimate Thor does a pretty good job of providing Thor's entire backstory prior to the first Ultimates).
Ultimate Avengers and New Ultimates have both been alright runs, but nothing on the level of the first Ultimates book, or most of Ultimates 2. Post-Ultimatum Spider-Man hasn't been this good since a couple of years before the relaunch, either.
All in all, I'd say the post-Ultimatum stuff has actually been mostly on form, given that the run up to Ultimatum was the weakest the entire line had been (even on the Spidey side).
Of course, now the Ultimate Death of Spider-Man 'event' is closing up at the end of the month, there is going to be another relaunch of sorts this summer - with a new Spider-Man, a new X-Men book (following on from the delay-crippled, but actually quite readable given that it's written by Jeph 'I wrote Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum' Leob) and a new Ultimates team - plus a Hawkeye miniseries.
But, no, the universe itself isn't being rebooted. Just like when they relaunched after Ultimatum, they're selling these as a great jumping in point for new readers, and they kind of are - if you're the least bit familliar with the characters in question anyway. Though I'd still always recommend going right back to the start, especially since it's not exactly a difficult thing to do with the Ultimate line. And even moreso given that the strongest volumes of all their series are still right at the beginning.
A lot of people seem very quick to write the Ultimate line off, but it's still selling consistently well, and is still putting out what I consider to be much stronger, much more integrated stories than what the mainstream books are putting out. The beauty of the Ultimate Universe is that everything is connected in it, and that - unlike the mainstream books - it's actually still pretty easy to follow everything too.
I recently started picking up the individual issues instead of just the TPBs, and at its busiest point (when the Ultimate Doom mini, Ultimate Thor, Ultimate Avengers, New Ultimates and Ultimate Spider-Man were all running), I was still manging to pick everything up in the line and spending less than a tenner every other week or so doing that.
I'm probably the biggest Ultimate Marvel fanboy there is, because it's unquestionably what really got me into comics outside of a passing interest - pretty much just because of how accessible and easy to complete it was - so my opinions on the line may sound like a hard sell, but honestly, I've found the good in the line to far, far outweigh the bad and I can't encourage enough people to actually give it a serious look for once. Even if you only pick up the first Ultimates TBP and, say, the first 10 volumes of Ultimate Spidey, you're still going to be reading, what I'd easily consider, some of the finest modern comics you'll be able to find.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on Jun 19, 2011 22:34:51 GMT
I love the Ultimate Universe as well. Like Alex it is probably what got me into comics but I think the DC reboot is a horrible idea. There is a difference with what has happened with the Ultimate universe and what is happenind in DC is vast. DC have explicitly stated they are going to be creating young versions of the characters. Unlike in the Ultimate Universe where despite the deaths it was business as usaul effectively they are regressing their characters as opposed to progressing them and letting them evolve. Oracle is Batgirl again, Dick Grayson is Nightwing again. These characters have evolved and now we are told they are going to be returning to their traditional roles. This simply isn't on in my opinion. I loved the Nightwing solo series but do you know what I loved more? The defining moment when Dick Grayson became Batman. It showed a natural progress that has been developed throughout the characters long history.
This isn't just a redesign or a revamp or simply relaunching the entire line up as issue 1's. They are changing core fundamental parts of the DC universe and essentially saying to hell with a character's development.
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Post by ShayMay on Jun 19, 2011 23:22:39 GMT
The comics will still be there. So long as the characters get a good send-off, I fail to see the problem. Character development doesn't automatically become irrelevant because something ends.
I know what you're saying, that this is the universe and these are the characters you have come to know. But on the bright side, at least some of the more crappy decisions are no longer canon!
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on Jun 19, 2011 23:53:12 GMT
The comics will still be there. So long as the characters get a good send-off, I fail to see the problem. Character development doesn't automatically become irrelevant because something ends. I know what you're saying, that this is the universe and these are the characters you have come to know. But on the bright side, at least some of the more crappy decisions are no longer canon! It's not the fact that it is ending that annoys me. This reboot is weird as it is both a reboot and a continuation. Essentially something is going to happen in Flashpoint that causes the characters to revert back to their previous roles. What annoys me is that storywise this achieves nothing. There is no actual reason for them to do this with regards to the stories there were telling. I know the business reasons behind this. DC wants to find a new audience. They want to provide them with a perfect "jumping on" point. But they risk alienating their current audience in the process. They are essentially saying that everything up to this point doesn't matter. I think a company whose business plan is centred on essentially ignoring their own history is doing something wrong. To be fair Shay I don't think retconning is ever the solution to crappy story decisions. You don't fix sometime by trying to say it never happened. That's like Frank Miller making excuses for All Star Batman being stupid because he was writing it as "satire" even though everything both he and DC said up to that point said otherwise. I will fully admit being wrong if they can provide us with a proper reason for the characters de-aging and reverting back to their previous roles. At the moment though it appears it is going to happen by simply because of editorial mandate.
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Post by ShayMay on Jun 20, 2011 0:01:43 GMT
Really? There's an actual in-universe reason given for the reboot? As a non-reader interested in getting into it, it doesn't affect me, naturally, but if they're actually going to say "this is going back to the same-universe day 1", that is [censored] for those who are currently reading. I thought it would have been a really nice opportunity to get some writers to write a story that otherwise couldn't be done, and/or provide some closure on the characters. But resetting everything (if that is indeed what they're doing) does seem... crap, really.
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Post by Alex on Jun 20, 2011 0:07:40 GMT
From what I understand of recent news about the whole relaunch, everything that has happened before is still canon and still happened, but now it's all been retconned to have happened within the past 5 years alone (somehow) - since the time of Nu!Action Comics #1 and Superman's reveal as the first super hero in the DC universe. So, Killing Joke still happened and Barbara Gordon got paralysed - but now she isn't. Batman Inc still happened/is happening but Bruce Wayne is all of a sudden Batman again. All of Superman's adventures still happened, but after Nu!Action Comics #1 and before Nu!Justice League #1 - except he's not married to Mary Jane Lois Lane any more.
Between this massive cluster[censored] of continuity and the fact they're launching with fifty two [censored]ing books, this is massively off-putting for new readers (as I would be, never having purchased any DC comics before) and a terrible mess for existing ones.
Who is meant to profit from this confusing nonsense? The way it's going, I can't see it being DC. It certainly doesn't seem that it will be existing readers and I - as one of them - can't see where new readers will find any solace either.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on Jun 20, 2011 0:17:08 GMT
52 titles and yet a new ongoing series with the Question elludes me once more! Why is it that the Question never gets any love.
This whole thing seems abit wibbly wobbly timy wimy. I think Spiderman:One More Day/ Joe "i wish things were back to the way they were in the 70's" Quesada's adventure proved this doesnt really work.
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Post by ShayMay on Jun 20, 2011 0:22:05 GMT
Jesus. Here was me hoping this'd be a nice, simple, "Everything Old is New Again" thing.
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lordgazza
Big Time Boomer
"What part of stay away from the apple tree did you not get?!"
Posts: 222
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Post by lordgazza on Jun 20, 2011 0:29:30 GMT
It's DC comics Shay. Things can never be simple here. Scratch that. Comics in general.
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Post by The Shad on Jun 21, 2011 10:00:41 GMT
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jun 21, 2011 18:02:52 GMT
In regards to the Ultimate Marvel relaunch, is it going to continue with the current characters (somehow) or is it a complete reset from day one?
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Post by Baron Canier on Jun 21, 2011 18:25:17 GMT
DC seem to be missing the point with their own reboot, in more ways than one. Another bump, for me, is that they've decided to retain truly obselete and unnecessary characters such as "Animal Man". Now, I know all about Morrison's run on Animal Man and how it's amusing and self-aware and everything, but here's the thing: no one's going to read a comic about a guy called Animal Man.
That's just one example, obviously. They're even attempting to get kids to read Swamp Thing which just...well, it's not going to work, is it? They should've dumped/re-worked all of their outdated baggage, not just outfits.
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Post by Alex on Jun 21, 2011 18:39:13 GMT
In regards to the Ultimate Marvel relaunch, is it going to continue with the current characters (somehow) or is it a complete reset from day one? It's a relaunch, not a reboot. Continuity remains as it is, but the loose ends of the past couple of post-Ultimatum years will be tied up. Spidey gets the biggest refresh by having a totally new person behind a totally new costume. X-Men hasn't had an ACTUAL on-going since before Ultimatum, so the new book launching in September is as new a jumping on point as you could get without a reset (though the team makeup is rather obviously drawn from Ultimate Spidey and Ultimate X's recent runs - so those will explain why those particular characters are there, especially the seemingly oddly placed Human Torch), and the new Ultimates book features a new team line-up too. It's pretty much the same situation as it was post-Ultimatum. All the current on-goings (which is just Ultimate Spidey now, really - Ultimate X can just be considered a mini-series when/if the final 6th issue lands, and both New Ultimates and Ultimate Avengers ran on the pre-Ultimatum Ultimates format of 12-book 'seasons', 'cept they brought it down to 6 this time) are canned and a bunch of new on-goings will start up afterwards - likely with a few months of a gap between the events of the aftermath of Death of Spider-Man and what happens in the first issue of these books in August/September. Long story short: no, it's not a DC-style cluster[censored] of a canon reset. It's just a refresh for the line itself, reflecting the huge world-changing affect that Spidey's death (or 'death' - I dunno yet, and refuse to read any spoilers about what actually happens in tomorrow's issue before reading it myself) will have on pretty much everyone in the Ultimate Universe. I'm actually really looking forward to it. After Ultimatum, I was really concerned - not least of all because Ultimatum was awful and killed off a bazillion people completely unsatisfactorily. It really left the question of how they can come back from that. Recent stuff has been good though - just not on the level of the beginning of the line. This relaunch should give the line a much-needed kick up the arse to correct that.
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jun 21, 2011 18:40:58 GMT
So the dead people are (mostly, more or less) staying dead? How novel!
Thing is, I'm willing to try Ultimate Marvel, but if I thought it was just going to restart completely I wouldn't bother.
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Post by Alex on Jun 21, 2011 19:40:20 GMT
Aside from 2 big examples - one of which was just the result of awful, awful writing when Ultimate X-Men was at the whim of some pretty poor writers, so far the "dead means dead" mantra has stuck.
There's no way they'd just reset the Universe as DC is doing - but I always live with the concern that one day Marvel will feel they've gotten all they can from the series and they'll scrub it entirely. It's still quite financially sustainable, though - moreso than most of mainstream Marvel - so that's safe enough for now. This relaunch will help them manage that sustenance both financially and creatively.
I'd definitely recommend looking back to the very beginning if you want to get into it, but the relaunch is as good a place as any if you can't be bothered with that. It's probably safe to say, though, that the best quality across the board in the line is still right at the start.
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Pitt
Script Hume
Ungrateful Sonic Saxophonist
If Lando dies, I'll destroy your planet!
Posts: 7,007
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Post by Pitt on Jun 21, 2011 21:17:46 GMT
Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men were first, correct?
I've heard that Robert Kirkman's run on Ultimate X-Men was something to avoid. I enjoy Invincible, though, so I'd probably try it anyway.
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Post by Alex on Jun 21, 2011 21:46:09 GMT
Vaughn and Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men is incomparable to how strong it was under Millar. People seem to enjoy giving Mark Millar a lot of [censored] in the comic industry, but I found both his Ultimate X-Men and Ultimates runs to be superb. Some of the stuff under both runs are ok, but as a whole, they're both really lacking. It's notable that Vaughn was the one that outed Colossus, a move I can only heartily be behind. It never seemed tacked on or sensationalist and was dealt with as perfectly as anything like this can be in a comic book.
Spidey and X-Men were the first books, yeah, and some time after Ultimate Marvel Team Up (available in a handy collected form), which sits around Ultimate Spidey #12 or so, follows the Ultimates. Everything from then on is relatively closely intertwined - especially centring around Nick Fury's involvement - but still understandable from an independent stand point of just one series.
There's also Ultimate Fantastic Four, the other major pre-Ultimatum on-going, but honestly, it doesn't compare to Spidey, X-Men or the Ultimates in terms of character, story or development. It's as good a take on the Fantastic Four as you're likely to get, but outside of the fantastic Ultimate Galactus trilogy or their various cross-over involvements, it's ignorable enough. That said, there is one good arc towards the end where they cross over with Marvel Zombies. Seeing that world connected to the Ultimate one was pretty sweet.
(PS: Sorry I keep writing essays on this stuff. I just don't often get a chance to go on about these comics. :x)
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Post by The Shad on Jun 27, 2011 11:57:44 GMT
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Post by Samface on Jul 20, 2011 17:12:48 GMT
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